How to Use Peptides to Boost Immunity, Heal, Burn Fat, Build Muscle, Increase IQ & Slow Aging

In this phenomenal Podcast on using Therapeutic Peptides, Ben Greenfield, Jay Campbell, Ryan Smith and Nick Andrews drilled deep on how Peptides are revolutionizing Medicine.

We discussed the most effective peptides in circulation for optimizing:

  • Immunity
  • Healing
  • Fat Loss
  • Strength/Muscle/Vitality
  • Longevity
  • Cognition

As we enter a current and post Covid-19 world, building para immunity is critically important to not only surviving but also thriving in the months and years to come.

REMEMBER: Please share your opinion on why Peptides must continue to remain a viable prescribing option for Clinicians.

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There is so much profound wisdom and science revealed on how to utilize therapeutic peptides, I highly recommend sharing this with Doctors/Clinicians/Researchers and any interested in better understanding these miraculous medications.

Here is the Entire Transcript with time stamps for precise dosages and recommendations.

Jay Campbell (00:00:00):

Well. Hello everybody. What is going on around the world? It’s Jay Campbell. How are you? And I’m joined in a live virtual stream yard studio with Ryan Smith of Tailor Made. Ryan, what’s up brother?

Ryan Smith (00:00:13):

Hey, how’s it going?

Jay Campbell (00:00:14):

It’s good to see you man. And of course Nick Andrews, my business partner with AseirCustom. Nick, what’s going on? Uh-oh. Nick, are you there? He’s not there. No internet. Okay, so, and we’re missing Ben Greenfield, which I don’t know where-

Nick Andrews (00:00:33):

Yes, I’m here. We were broken. What’s up, Jay?

Jay Campbell (00:00:37):

He heard me. What’s going on? So, cool man. It’s good to have all you both of you guys. All right, we have a ton of people watching. Now there’s Ben, he says he’s a few minutes behind. Uh-oh, his wife is sick. All right, no problem, brother. Hopefully. Cool. Okay, hold on. Let me just text him. All good. [crosstalk 00:00:55] See you, dude. Okay, here we go. So anyway, got Ryan, got Nick. Ben Greenfield will be joining us shortly. His wife was sick today, not the coronavirus, but he’s handling some stuff. So he’s going to join us in a second. So just real quick for those that you guys don’t know, I’m going to let these guys talk and just introduce themselves. I think most people know who they are, but I’ll go to you first, Ryan, just quick introduction.

Ryan Smith (00:01:23):

Yeah, sure. I’ll go ahead. Yeah, my name’s Ryan Smith. Over the past couple of years sort of been spending most of my time in the peptide realm due to the compounding pharmacy I work for, Tailor Made Compounding, which has put a lot of these peptides that we’re going to be talking about today on the market and a little bit on the map for some of the integrative practitioners we work with. And my background before that was in peptide and protein biosynthesis. And so doing things like you see behind me with the peptide and protein synthesizer and then doing a little bit of medicine as well, going to two years of medical school before deciding it wasn’t for me. And so, yeah. So we’re obviously here today to talk about the world of peptides and all the good that they can do, especially in this coronavirus world. And so anxious to kick off.

Jay Campbell (00:02:06):

Beautiful, man. Well it’s great to have you. And you know, for those of you guys who don’t know Ryan, I’ve been talking to Ryan since 2014 at the very, very beginning of his career and technically mine too in this world, and he knows his shit. So you’re in for a real treat. I mean most of the people that are going to be watching this already know you of course and have talked to you and met you. But so let me go on to Nick. So Nick, real quick, my background. So Nick and I met on Twitter about three-and-a-half years ago. Nick is a very, very high level biochemical engineer by trade, and him and I become really good friends, obviously, on the side, and we own a company,, which is a skincare basically peptide or a skincare cosmeceutical company. And we sell, like Tailor Made sells, GHK-Cu but in a cream format for skin. So anyway, Nick, just tell us a little bit about your background.

Nick Andrews (00:02:59):

Yes. So a biochemical engineering degree. Been in the form of biotech world forever. So everywhere from traditional pharma to biotech and you know now into the whole RNA world that where all the fun is happening. MRNA, right? So that’s an entirely different discussion though.

Jay Campbell (00:03:21):

You mean an MRNA encoded bio weapon virus like COVID-19?

Nick Andrews (00:03:28):

Well, we’re talking about peptides today, but I’m sure Ryan will agree that ultimately you can take a lot of the functions of peptides and build an RNA that does the same thing and potentially go way beyond what some of the current peptides are doing.

Jay Campbell (00:03:43):

Beautiful. Okay, good. Well, both of you guys have a very amazing, illustrious pedigree. This is going to be a phenomenal podcast. Again, if you just joined us, and we have a lot of people watching right now, Ben Greenfield is coming. His wife fell ill today and he’s got some stuff to do personally to handle it. He’s going to join us as soon as he is, and as soon as he comes in, I will let him in.

Jay Campbell (00:04:02):

If you are watching and you going to have questions, which I’m sure they’re already are coming in right now, just wait, we’re going to fly through this stuff. We’re going to go over six classifications, the three or four or perhaps five best peptides for each classification, and at the end we’ll answer questions. Now for everybody, because Ryan you know this and so do you Ben… Ben, Nick, a lot of people will hear us talk and we speak fast.

Jay Campbell (00:04:31):

We’re smart. We talk about these peptides, we talk about dosages and constitutions, MLs and milligrams and all these things. We are going to transcribe this entire podcast, so if you didn’t get something or you miss something and you’re like, “Oh my God, I don’t know what the dosage is,” don’t worry. Everything will be transcribed, and I’ll put it on our site, probably within a day or two. So it’ll obviously also be in this YouTube video link too, so people can see this and they’ll see all the dosages. So again, don’t worry if you do not hear the dosage when these guys go through it.

Jay Campbell (00:05:02):

Okay, so without further ado, we’re going to go to the most important one right now, which is immunity. So we’re all now in a post-COVID world. Okay. The world has changed. Hello, in case you guys haven’t figured that out, but you’re all smart jay Campbell audience followers and Ben Greenfield. And so we know that you already know this, so obviously we’re starting with immunity. Okay. So I’m going to go to you first, Ryan, and then I’ll let you comment too, and I’ll just go back and forth with you guys. So the first one that we have is Thymosin Alpha-1. Talk about that.

Ryan Smith (00:05:38):

Yeah, the Thymosin Alpha-1, I’ve been on your show a couple of times before and said this is my favorite peptide. And it couldn’t be any more true than right now. Thymosin Alpha-1, it’s been studied in clinical trials since 1985, so it’s got a long pedigree in clinical trials. It’s got over 3000 patients from age 101 to 12 months old. A huge breadth of people that it can affect and a huge variety of ways it can do it. It basically just strengthens the immune system, the innate immune system, to increase natural killer cell, cytotoxic T-cells, all of these things that fight viruses, as well as helping with some cytokine profiles too. And without obviously saying that this is directly applicable for COVID, it does increase the immune system and has been used with influenza. It’s been used with hepatitis C, hepatitis B, malignant melanoma. It just allows the immune system to do its job and find these abnormal cells.

Ryan Smith (00:06:30):

And it’s super, super safe. In all those trials I mentioned, it didn’t have one serious adverse event. In some trials, it says has less side effects than placebo. And so it is the perfect application, especially because we’ll talk about this probably a little bit later as well, but with COVID, you get a lot of that cytokine storm, that inflammation that causes damage to tissues, and so modulating those cytokines, particularly to having those anti-inflammatory markers come down a little bit, it doesn’t only help with disease progression but also can help with some of those other effects you see downstream with some of that inflammation.

Jay Campbell (00:07:04):

Very, very well said. Nick, I want you to comment and then talk a little bit about dosage. And again, I wanted to clarify on this because I get feedback from people all the time. People write in and they’re like, “Well, you never tell if it’s difference for men or women.” So obviously on this one, we’re going to go over if there are differentiations, there are very, very few times where men are differently dose than women, but we’ll get to that. So very well said. What do you want to add about Thymosin-1, Nick?

Nick Andrews (00:07:29):

Yeah, I guess the main thing I would add is that, one step back from what Ryan was saying, which was all great stuff, so we’re talking about two compounds here, TB-500 and Thymosin Alpha-1, T-1. Both are essentially derivative of the thymus, right? And the thymus is essentially one of the main core control centers of the entire immune system. So if we’re talking about COVID or just general health of the immune system, both of these are ground zero. The main compound you’re going to go to. They’re both very safe. Not to get too far ahead here, but for example, a TB-500, I was just telling Jay before we started, there was a study in 2010. They were giving people doses up to 1.2 grams IV of TB-500 daily for two weeks straight with no observable negative effects.

Nick Andrews (00:08:28):

Compared to what we would normally take in the peptide world, that’s almost 10x what most people would take. So I’ll put the caution out there because I’m sure you’ve heard similar, Ryan, that this is great stuff, but as we all like to remind everybody, we’re all on and of one, right? And some people, if you start going to higher doses with the immune peptides, some people can start to see some effects, whether a hive effect or various other forms it can take. But they’re both powerful.

Nick Andrews (00:09:07):

So here’s an interesting thing about TB-500. I’m sure Ryan’s already familiar with this. There are multiple studies that show that TB-500 actually protects her tissue in myocardial infarctions and heart attacks and also from general damage.

Nick Andrews (00:09:21):

So once again, if we want to bring this back to COVID, the Coronavirus, one thing you see is heart damage. You can argue is it due to these two [inaudible 00:09:29] or is it due to the hypoxia, but regardless of that, we have a known compound that’s demonstrated to be highly safe that’s cardioprotective. As well as suppressing inflammation, optimizing action of the whole series of immune response cells, from T killer cells all the way… Lymphocytes all the way down.

Ryan Smith (00:09:50):

Yeah. And if you don’t mind jumping in there on the TB [crosstalk 00:09:52].

Jay Campbell (00:09:50):

Yeah, please.

Ryan Smith (00:09:54):

Yeah, just as well with Thymosin beta-4 as well has a really interesting profile to it as well. There’s not a published study on this, but in a patent actually, you can see some of the antiviral capabilities, particularly for envelope viruses, whenever they studied it, a single, just one time administration per week. So one dose a week for 12 weeks reduced viral titers for HIV from 250,000 to zero in 26 patients. 26 out of 26 patients had undetectable viral titers. And so we know it works against viruses. We know it works against envelope viruses. Again, it’s a very, very pleiotropic product. And so we can’t say, hey, this mechanism is having this effect. But one of the ways that people think it happens is increasing IL-18, which increases the interferon gamma, which has some of those same innate immunity effects as the Thymosin Alpha-1.

Nick Andrews (00:10:45):

So you know they actually have [crosstalk 00:10:47] a very similar study with influenza that shows very similar results, that a marked reduce reported influenza symptoms, if you start TB-500 upon first symptoms of influenza.

Ryan Smith (00:11:00):


Jay Campbell (00:11:01):

Which would equate to… would it work similarly with COVID? I assume it would, correct?

Nick Andrews (00:11:07):

The suggestion would be that based on the known data that it is… It does have antiviral properties, boosts your immune system’s ability to respond to obviously an array of viruses. Because we’re talking about influenza and HIV, which are entirely different structures and mechanisms of action. So no, we can’t give you one paper, one answer, but right there you have two real world examples of entirely different classes of viruses being essentially suppressed by TB-500. Which in case anybody in the podcast isn’t familiar with, TB-4 and TB-500 are the same thing.

Jay Campbell (00:11:45):

Right. Okay [crosstalk 00:11:45].

Nick Andrews (00:11:45):

Unless we want to do real deep dive.

Jay Campbell (00:11:47):

Okay, great answers from both of you guys. So Ryan, what is the dosage from a maintenance of immunity right now, which obviously you love and all the great doctors I bring on the show love too, versus for a prophylactic protection from symptoms if someone is experiencing symptoms of COVID?

Ryan Smith (00:12:06):

Yeah, the thing is with the Thymosin Alpha-1, there’s no toxic dose. And so you don’t really have to worry about overdosing it. And we know that the effects are, from a pharmacological standpoint and from a kinetic standpoint, usually done within 24 hours, a little bit over 24 hours. And so, it’s the downstream effects which continue. Those increase and some of those natural killer cells, those T-cells. And so generally what we recommend for just a prophylactic immune dose is the 1.5 milligrams twice weekly. And that’s pretty consistent what’s done with the commercial Zadaxin. Some people will like to do it on a daily basis if they’re trying to treat something like auto-immune with a lot of increment inflammation, but yeah.

Ryan Smith (00:12:46):

Hey, Ben. Good to have you.

Ben Greenfield (00:12:48):

Yeah, what’s up, guys?

Jay Campbell (00:12:49):

Ben Greenfield. What’s up brother?

Ben Greenfield (00:12:52):

Yo yo.

Jay Campbell (00:12:52):

All right, good to have you. So we just started the immune, first peptide actually for immunity, which is Thymosin Alpha- 1, and Ryan and Nick just left their information. So Ryan, I’m sorry, I’d just let him in, but what would be the dosage differentiation then for the person that’s experiencing symptoms?

Ryan Smith (00:13:11):

Yeah, so you can even just do, if you wanted to, a 1.5 milligrams every day if you wanted. The biggest thing is, like I said, managing some of that cytokine inflammation. And so I would still remain relatively conservative with the 1.5 milligrams. Maybe do it three times a week instead of twice.

Jay Campbell (00:13:27):

Beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful. Okay, so the next one is NMN. Talk a little bit about NMN. So it’s obviously

Ben Greenfield (00:13:36):

Did you say M&Ms?

Jay Campbell (00:13:41):

You got M and M right now inside. It’s what you’re listening to, Eminem in your earplug there.

Ben Greenfield (00:13:47):

I was talking about the candy, not the rapper, but I’ll take both.

Jay Campbell (00:13:54):

So NAD+ and NADH. Go ahead, Ryan.

Ryan Smith (00:13:59):

The NMN is obviously gained a lot of popularity for this longevity profile. But again, it’s a precursor to NAD. It’s sort of that intermediate between the nicotinamide riboside. And a lot of people have been saying that this is a good product for immune, and I don’t know where I stand on it, to be honest. James Clement, who has done The Switch, he wrote The Switch, he’s done sort of the lawyer turn scientist, he does a lot of this research, I was talking to him. And he basically had said that one of the ways that of immune cells can sort of kill off virally infected cells is by increasing CD38, which uses NAD as a sort of a co factor. So by increasing CD38, you sort of starve the cells of NAD. And apparently that works a lot less if you are supplementing with things that increase NAD. And so I love the NMN for longevity. I think it’s an amazing product. I love the nicotinamide riboside probably not as much. But for immunity, I’m not sure how applicable that is, although I hear a lot of good things and there are also a lot of great studies on immunity and increasing NAD.

Jay Campbell (00:15:11):

So Ben, are you currently using Thymosin Alpha-1, and have you used NMN or NAD?

Ben Greenfield (00:15:20):

I’m not using Thymosin Alpha-1. I have in the past. I have been taking some liver capsules that are a complex with thymus in them, and I don’t know how those compare to the peptide. They’re probably less powerful. But I’m using liver quite a bit, a particular liver thymus from Ancestral Supplements. And I do have some NMN from Alive by Nature, a sublingual NMN, which I think is a pretty good delivery mechanism. And I haven’t been using that too much because I also have the NAD gold that Chris Shade just formulated for Quicksilver. You know, I liked that formulation. It’s got some of the methyl donors in it and I think it’s a good formulation. I can always tell if it’s a good NAD formulation because any time you go slightly above the recommended dose, your eyes start to twitch. That’s a common phenomenon when the NAD is getting really hyped up in your system. So anything more than about six little squirts of that stuff and my eyes get a little twitchy. So I use that.

Ben Greenfield (00:16:33):

And then increasingly, about the 12 hour NAD 1000 mg electrophoresis patches, I like those. I find that those tend to give me just as much energy as I get from intravenous administration. So I’m pretty partial to the patches, but right now I’m kind of going back and forth between those on a day that I might be sleep deprived or have a little bit more inflammation, and then the sublingual NAD gold from Quicksilver is what I’m using right now.

Jay Campbell (00:17:07):

You’re Ben Greenfield, you don’t have any inflammation. What do you got nebulizing right next to you, dude?

Ben Greenfield (00:17:13):

Oh, you can see that? I always have some kind of essential oil rocking and rolling. What do I have in here today… I have a guy who formulates for me down in Oregon. This one’s called Invigor. It’s basil, cardamom, caraway, frankincense, peppermint, rosemary and silver fir. It’s kind of [crosstalk 00:17:34].

Jay Campbell (00:17:34):

Beautiful. Frankincense is the bomb.

Ben Greenfield (00:17:37):


Jay Campbell (00:17:37):

Beautiful. Very, very nice. Okay. Thank you. Very, very good answers. So then Ryan or Nick, one of you guys then… Ryan, you don’t really like NMN for immunity. You say some people say it’s okay or whatever, but if they were to use the patches… you guys also sell it as an injectable sub-Q, correct?

Ryan Smith (00:17:54):

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And most people who have done the NAD are familiar with it as like more of the IV setting, more of that really intense type of behavior. Obviously, we do the electrophoresis patches as well. And so I would have some experience there. And the biggest thing, I think, the general consensus is also dose, right? In terms of there’s a wide discrepancy on dose. It’s a relatively expensive molecule. And so you’ll see people like Dr. Sinclair advocating it for one gram per day, and that can be very, very expensive. And so I do like it, especially for longevity, but activating those [inaudible 00:18:32] activating the carbs, CD38. But ultimately, I’m not sure what to think about it for immunity.

Jay Campbell (00:18:39):

Okay. Nick, you want to add anything on NMN? Internet. Nick, can you hear us?

Ben Greenfield (00:18:50):

Nope. Frozen.

Jay Campbell (00:18:53):

That sucks. All right. I’m skipping ahead. DSIP. Well known neuromodulator and natural somnogenic. I love that word. Non peptide with many other physiological functions. How many of your patients are using that, Ryan?

Ryan Smith (00:19:08):

We have a good bit. I think that the reasons are pretty diverse. We have people using it for everything from increasing luteinizing hormone and testosterone levels, to helping with sleep, to helping with pain. There’s some good research on pain as well. But so we have a lot of patients on it. How many people are using it for what is a little bit difficult to say.

Jay Campbell (00:19:30):

Right. Right.

Ryan Smith (00:19:30):

But it’s a really, really diverse product. It’s been studied since the ’40s, and so it’s got some interesting research but definitely one that is pretty common for us.

Jay Campbell (00:19:41):

Okay. And then the other one I have, again, these are kind of… They’re good, but they’re not as used well, is LL-37 the antimicrobial. You want to just talk about that for a second?

Ryan Smith (00:19:54):

Yeah, yeah. And I think Ben might actually have some experience with this one too, but the LL-37 is an interesting one. It’s the only natural human cathelicidin. And so the only natural sort of produced antimicrobial peptide, and it’s got a lot of amazing research from everything from Alzheimer’s to auto-immunity to literally just about everything you can imagine.

Ryan Smith (00:20:13):

The only problem with it is that it’s got around seven different cell surface receptors, and which ones are stimulated where are a little bit difficult to say. And so I always recommend caution on that one just because you’re not sure how it’s going to react. For some cancers, it might make it significantly better, can be an anticancer. For others, it might be worse. And so same with autoimmune, it can make some things worse, some things better. But ultimately, I also hear the people who take it, especially in an oral formulation for the gut, have pretty good results. So we’ve had some results of a bacteria… Or I should say bacterial resistance where people who’ve had no option, tried every antibiotic they can, and then do the LL-37, and then have their jaw infections resolved within just a few weeks. And so I’ve seen the power of it, but it still scares me a little bit because we’re not sure where it’s working or how it’s working.

Jay Campbell (00:21:01):

Ben, do you have any experience with LL-37?

Ben Greenfield (00:21:05):

I share Ryan’s sentiment. When I looked into it, I was a little bit iffy on the multiple pathways that it could target. But I did use a stint of it because I was a little desperate. I had Giardia and wanted to use it for that, and did come across some research showing it to have some pretty good anti-Giardial activities. So I used a bout of it when I had Giardia for about two or three weeks. But that’s about it. I was unfortunately doing so many other things at the same time, it’s tough to say whether or not it worked, but that was about the extent of my usage of LL-37.

Ryan Smith (00:21:44):

Yeah. And one of the things I should note about that as well is what we’re seeing now with things like the core quinolone and some of these other things is that you’re seeing some antifungals with antiviral capabilities, but this obviously hits fungal, viral, bacterial, you name it. And so the broad spectrum nature of it makes it really, really promising. But there are currently computer programs that are running databases of how to make the best antimicrobial peptide. So they’re coming out with thousands every day. And so I would say it’s probably not too long until we have something synthetic that’s a little bit more specific and still have some of those wide spectrum capabilities. And so very, very excited by antimicrobials. But this one is still a little bit up in the air.

Jay Campbell (00:22:26):

Yeah, Dan… you guys know Dr. Stickler, he likes this peptide a lot. He wrote about this in his push out to his clients way in advance of COVID and everything and said this is a good one to have on hand, just in the event you have serious infection or symptoms. Nick, did you want to comment on DSIP or LL-37 before I move on to healing?

Nick Andrews (00:22:48):

Yeah, I’ll jump in on LL-37. So with LL-37, Ryan may already have touched on this, some people can be more sensitive to it, struggle with it a little bit more from an effectiveness or a side effect perspective. One thing that’s then successful, at least if you’re talking to people in the peptide community is essentially priming your immune system with TB-500 first. So you do an initial short cycle of TB-500, then you bring the LL-37 on, and people who may normally be a little more reactive to LL-37 seem to have a much more successful time with it. So on top of that, they go together natural anyway. So obviously, if you’re taking LL-37, you’re doing it for a specific reason, you have bacterial issues, you have a health issue at hand, TB-500 is going to help that anyway. But by starting with TB-500, it seems…

Nick Andrews (00:23:46):

Where was the conference in Arizona I think you were at recently, Jay.

Jay Campbell (00:23:51):


Nick Andrews (00:23:52):

There was actually a whole presentation on TB-500 and how it primes the immune system to act effectively without overreacting.

Jay Campbell (00:23:59):

Yeah, Ryan [crosstalk 00:24:00] who was the doctor? Who was the doctor that gave that presentation? I don’t remember. But you were there, Ryan.

Ryan Smith (00:24:07):

I don’t remember it.

Jay Campbell (00:24:07):

Yeah,. It’s all good.

Ben Greenfield (00:24:08):

Yeah. Well, one of the other things, just while we’re on the topic of LL-37, one of the things that even, Jay, I’ve seen in some of your emails have been the importance of vitamin D for immunity. And a lot of people don’t know that LL-37 is vitamin D dependent. And so if you don’t have high enough levels of vitamin D, your tissues actually can’t even express LL-37. And so another reason to do some of that supplementation and the [inaudible 00:24:29] you can’t sort of avoid the basics as well.

Jay Campbell (00:24:33):

Dosage. Obviously, it varies with indication and patient, but you guys are selling a formulation of five milliliters at 2000 micrograms per milliliter, correct?

Ryan Smith (00:24:42):

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Most people will typically, I would say dose it anywhere from 100 micrograms once a day to much, much higher, depending on how serious the issue is.

Jay Campbell (00:24:55):

Got it. Okay. It’s MCGs. Okay, got it. Okay. So healing. So I’m going to switch over to healing. I’ll just make a quick statement on a BPC-157. I think most people that use peptides or have been using peptides are familiar with this body protective compound. Ben’s written a profound article that dominates on Google still. It was written I think what, three or four years ago. It’s an amazing peptide. It absolutely… if you’re going to talk about a peptide that was such a game changer for humanity, it’s really this peptide. You can have a broken leg, a torn ACL, a meniscus, torn elbow, whatever, and you start using BPC, it’s like a miracle. I tell people that last summer, when my wife and I got back from Peru, Monica had slipped and fallen on a stairs at an old monastery that we were in, and she popped back up and I knew she hurt herself.

Jay Campbell (00:25:49):

And when she came back a week later, we went to our chiro, and she was in agony. And he did an exam on her and she had a hairline fracture of her… I think it was L-4. And she started using BPC. Thankfully, my good friends at Tailor Made sent out a care package immediately, and she was literally fully healed with a hairline fracture in 11 days. And it might have even been sooner than that because she was back to normal like it didn’t affect her. So I want to just say that again, one peptide that we go over here today that is literally magic, it’s BPC. Ben, talk about BPC.

Ben Greenfield (00:26:27):

You kind of summed it up, man. It’s a wonderful anti-inflammatory compound, and I’ve found it to be pretty effective for injury recovery, primarily. I really don’t use BPC-157 TB-500 much unless I’ve got like a little nagging ache or pain. Just because I try not to use stuff unless I absolutely have to, but I’ve found it to be very effective, especially in conjunction with TB-500. I think they’ve got two slightly different mechanisms of action. A ladder more on the fibers, from what I understand, and the BPC more on the inflammatory pathways. But I found it to be very effective. I recommend it to a lot of my clients who’ve used it for injuries. I’ve used it myself on injuries. And then for general inflammation too, it seems to be pretty effective. So, yeah, I don’t know if there’s a lot more I could really say about it. You kind of summed it up.

Jay Campbell (00:27:20):

Yeah, no, I agree with you. And I’m just like you, too. Same thing. A lot of people come at us and say, “Oh, well what are your peptides that you regularly use?” I’m like, “Well, I use peptides maybe once or twice a year. If I’m not injured, I use it less than that.” Ryan, anything you want to add on BPC-157?

Ryan Smith (00:27:37):

No, not a ton to add. I think it’s sort of all covered. Just like the TB-4, we were talking about both of these things. The number one thing is just how pleiotropic they are. They do so many different things in so many different ways. And so whenever… That’s the reason that a lot of people just say they worked so well because there again, almost like… I used the word before, but broad spectrum, they cover a lot of different things and are able to sort of cover a lot of different issues.

Jay Campbell (00:28:04):

So let me ask you this, Nick, what would be BPC… Because again, like you said, it’s very pleiotropic. What would it not be good for? A lot of people think it’s such a wonder peptide molecule that they can do it forever. What is it not going to heal?

Nick Andrews (00:28:27):

That’s actually a hard question. I will say BPC- 157, the system it’s probably going to impact the least long term is neurological. There are some studies that suggest that it will actually help a little bit, in terms of the neurological area. But that’s probably, at least from everything I’ve seen on it, it’s a least active area of affects. One interesting area, you guys have probably seen some of these studies and I’ve seen this firsthand. Well, somebody I suggested tried it, is actually healing a-



PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:29:04]

Nick Andrews (00:29:00):

Somebody had suggested, try it. It’s actually healing oral and dental issues. So they’ve done some just horrific studies on rats, like fricking just rip their teeth out, see if they can kill one with the infection and see if they can heal another. And, they’ll just do an oral wash of TB 500 and BPC-157 and just had tremendous results.

Nick Andrews (00:29:25):

I’ve recommended it to a few people who’ve been having oral issues and they’ve seen huge results. So I just essentially do a mouthwash of it and every night and they’re like, went to the dentist two weeks later and they’re like, what happened? Like holy cow, it’s like day and night.

Jay Campbell (00:29:43):

So Ryan, question regarding that, because obviously we know that there’s oral formulations out there, Ben’s talked about it, we all are good friends with Dr. [inaudible 00:00:52]. From an understanding of a therapeutic, is it clear now that we can say that obviously injectable is a better format for someone that has a really acute traumatic injury versus the oral, which we know it was very impactful for the microbiome. I mean, can you differentiate the two a little bit so people understand?

Ryan Smith (00:30:11):

Yeah, definitely. And I should note that there’s no study which compares these side to side. And so, most of what we’ve seen has been the result of all of our patients that have been using both mechanisms and it’s clear that they both work for generally everything. But with that being said, I think that the injectables are definitely better at helping with musculoskeletal issues. I think that there’s no denying it.

Ryan Smith (00:30:32):

And that’s one thing I always like to say about the BPC as well is that a lot of people get caught up on dosing, but with the BPC, even five micrograms have been shown to be effective at helping heal some of these issues. And so even small doses can be extremely effective, which is why it’s so hard to differentiate. But I think that it’s clear that through our experience that injectable for anything musculoskeletal is significantly better.

Ryan Smith (00:30:55):

A lot of people will still say inject at the site of injury. I think that that’s still a little bit up in the air. I think that generally injectable is better, but whether or not it’s the site of injury I think is a little bit up for debate. I did probably hear more of injection at the site of injury type stuff for the thymosin beta then I do for the BPC. But yeah, I would say, if you’re going GI, if you’re doing some of the other things like helping to heal ulcers or helping with gastric reflux or increasing hiatal hernia pressures, that’s all better to do the BPC oral and then we’ve seen the injectables are much, much better for anything injury or tendon related.

Jay Campbell (00:31:30):

Okay. Awesome answer. So we’ve already kind of talked about TB 400 and 500. Obviously Ryan, you guys, and when I use it same way, same thing as Ben for nagging injuries, joint issues and if I have a destabilization or something like that, but when is TB 500 better in isolation? Go ahead Ryan.

Ryan Smith (00:31:52):

Yeah, to take a shot at this, I think that the thymosin beta 4 is better in isolation as it relates to particularly the neurological effects, TBI, stroke, the same type of benefit is not been demonstrated with the BPC. We see some serotonin action as Nick mentioned earlier and some neuromodulation, but for particularly for blood brain barrier, we know thymosin beta 4 has a transporter. We know it works in the brain, we know it’s good for TBI and stroke and so I would say that that’s where it’s generally a better.

Ryan Smith (00:32:19):

But the mechanisms that both of these things work on are definitely synergistic, right? Particularly angiogenesis, blood flow, all of those things are obviously helpful, particularly also the actin monomer sequestering nature of the thymosin beta 4, is good for developing the cytoskeleton, which can also help with the BPC to increase those chondrocytes in those fibroblasts activities. So you get some of that collagen deposition. So they’re good together, but the only really big area I can say that it would be better to just use thymosin beta alone would be TBI and stroke

Jay Campbell (00:32:50):

Ben, your thoughts on… Well hold on one second Nick, Ben just your thoughts on a TB 500 in isolation.

Ben Greenfield (00:32:58):

The only thing I’d throw in there is that subjectively, based on the mechanism of action of delayed onset muscle soreness and the eccentric fiber damage. I’ve actually messed around with it a little bit, post particularly, I have that Russian Eastern device, the newbie and [inaudible 00:33:14] and use it once or twice a month and it creates a ton of eccentric tissue damage. And I’ve used TB 500 and I haven’t used TB 500 afterwards and I’ve found my DOMS disappears significantly more quickly, like within one or two days when I’ve got TB 500 onboard. So it seems to be accelerating recovery from eccentric tissue damage to some extent, so that’s another area I’ve found it to be useful.

Jay Campbell (00:33:43):

Beautiful. I’m sorry Nick, what were you going to say?

Nick Andrews (00:33:48):

Well first of all I’ll respond to Ben and say that there’s actually some really good research on TB 500 that shows it’s directly stimulating regeneration of muscle tissue upon damage. So that, I mean, you nailed it and there’s actually a lot of research behind that as well. With regard to the combo, I will talk somebody’s head off all day long about the combo. You’ve heard me do it to you, Jay.

Nick Andrews (00:34:14):

I’ve had multiple injuries doing judo, jujitsu, mixed martial arts. Popped knees, dislocated shoulders, broke a rib. I broke a rib in judo. I was doing, I’ll be very blunt, higher doses of BPC 157 and TB 500 and within nine weeks I was practicing full contact again.

Jay Campbell (00:34:39):

They’re miracle compounds so to speak. Really, they really are. It’s unfortunately that there are not enough people that really, truly know about BPC and TB together. It’s like magic for most people. I mean obviously our communities, our fans, our followers, our friends know this, but there’s so many people in the real world that could be utilizing this. And whenever I talk to like [inaudible 00:35:05] or the surgeons, they’re always laughing because it’s like on one side they want to talk to their patients about it. But on the other side, they know they can’t. It’s a tough balancing act. But yeah, tremendously amazing drugs.

Jay Campbell (00:35:20):

And again, if you guys just tuned in, we’re going to have this of course transcribed so Ben can put it on his site. I can put it on my site. So if you guys miss dosages or anything like that. So what we didn’t say Ryan, is the dosage for BPC. So just real quick and both of them obviously just give us a dosage real quick on both like obviously for maintenance and for healing.

Ryan Smith (00:35:39):

Yeah, so as Nick already mentioned, the thymosin beta 4 can go up really, really high. It’s been used up to 1.2 grams IV for those mice studies. But generally I would say most people will do around 750 micrograms on a daily basis and keep the courses relatively short because it is so angiogenic people don’t want to keep it in the system 24/7. As Ben mentioned, just personally you want to do some short courses just to limit any angiogenic cancer potential. And then with the BPC, most people will do around 500 micrograms, either once or [inaudible 00:36:11] orally. And then usually you can do even 300 micrograms as just a subcutaneous injectable. And again, that can be done twice a day or just once.

Jay Campbell (00:36:22):

Beautiful. Okay, I’m going to move to GHK-Cu, which obviously I’m biased because my supplement company, we sell it. It’s at Now I’m not going to put a big advertisement or anything for it, but as Nick likes to say, I know Ryan agrees and Ben has been using it now too. It’s an amazing peptide molecule. It does a lot of different things from a healing standpoint, I mean the modalities are insane. I’ll go to you first, Nick, real quick on GHK-Cu, obviously again, just for you guys who don’t know what it is, it’s a natural occurring copper peptide complex. But just talk a little bit about GHK-Cu, Nick.

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Nick Andrews (00:37:02):

GHK-Cu, simply put is essentially another growth factor like BPC. Acts in a different way though. Honestly, it’s one of my personal favorites. Obviously you started a company with it. It acts in multiple different ways. So in skin, it essentially acts at the level of DNA telling your DNA to express itself in a healthy state versus in an unhealthy state. To take a long complex description and boil it down to something simple that everybody will get.

Nick Andrews (00:37:34):

It acts on multiple factors. So in regards to skincare, it’s going to improve everything from the, excuse me, from the general structure of the skin. I mean, if we get into health care, from your collagen, plumpness, moisture retention, it accelerates regeneration. As Jay knows, as we kind of started this before, that’s actually how Jay and I got into GHK. If you don’t mind me going into this a little bit Jay?

Jay Campbell (00:38:09):

Yeah it’s fine, go ahead.

Nick Andrews (00:38:10):

So from my martial arts constantly having a coarse heavy gi abrading my face, it was literally destroying my face. Any doctor I went to see, a dermatologist, just here have corticosteroids, corticosteroids. Everybody in this group knows that’s not really going to help you long term. I was already involved in peptides. The answer had to be out there. Did a little digging. All right, GHK-Cu was a pretty quick, pretty obvious answer. Mixed up my own first batch and honestly, the results within one to two weeks were just stunning to me. It looked kind of a horror movie when I started. I would bleed from the pores in my face, like a horror movie after training, because my skin had been so destroyed by gi rash, just literally being abraded off. Within one or two weeks, I looked completely normal. Even after training, not like a freaking horror show. And honestly, after what, about six to eight weeks, wrinkles I was starting to get up here were gone. You’ve seen it Jay, people who guess my age, they don’t guess my real age.

Jay Campbell (00:39:19):

Yes he’s 94.

Nick Andrews (00:39:22):

And people massively, I will say it’s almost a topical equivalent of BPC 157. So if you look at how it accelerates healing, so to prove a point, several people didn’t believe me how good GHK-Cu is at healing burns for example, sun burn, skin damage in general. You can see how fair I am, purposely went out in the sun all day, no sunblock, nothing.

Jay Campbell (00:39:50):


Nick Andrews (00:39:51):

Sherry red at the end of the day. And after applying a 3% GHK Aloe compound heavily that night and by the next morning and there was no stinging, the red was like 50% gone. Within about 36 to 40 hours there was almost no red left at all. Never peeled, nothing.

Jay Campbell (00:40:16):

Yeah, no it’s an insane compound. Ryan, talk a little bit about… You guys also use it for hair regrowth and obviously, we found out now from Ben’s podcasts and now us experimenting and a lot of our fans and followers doing it themselves, it does generate hair regrowth. But talk a little bit about it from that perspective too.

Ryan Smith (00:40:35):

Well it’s been studied directly versus minoxidil and obviously people are thinking about the over the counter type stuff, like obviously Rogaine, that’s obviously minoxidil and so we know it’s better than really anything on the market. [inaudible 00:40:50] some DHT and it basically what it does, it prolongs the anagen phase of the hair follicle. So essentially you have more retention, you have sort of just a healthier hair. And one of the things just going back to it, I don’t want to gloss over it, is that it fits this hormone replacement narrative as well, where these levels endogenously decline as you age, right? We start off with levels in the two hundreds then it goes down in our sixties to less than 50 and so we have a significant decline and replacing it is not a bad thing.

Ryan Smith (00:41:17):

The other thing I like to say is that, I see some questions even on the chat about injectable versus topical and I always like to reference this study they did on mice, which they induced wounds on the back of their necks and then they applied the GHK to their thighs and even those that they were applying to the thigh area still had increased wound healing on the back of the neck. And so, whenever people ask the question, injection versus topical, there might be some, I would say some good effects of the GHK as an injection for some of the genetic, just anti-aging, longevity stuff, but you don’t need it to be injectable in order for it to be effective.

Jay Campbell (00:41:50):


Nick Andrews (00:41:51):

Yeah again, that’s actually a nice point about GHK, is it’s actually one of the few peptides that’s small enough to readily pass through the skin. So there’s probably only what, Ryan, you probably know this better than me, maybe three to five at best, peptides that you can realistically readily push through the skin. And GHK is one of the best ones out there for that.

Ryan Smith (00:42:13):


Jay Campbell (00:42:15):

So Ben, you were using some of it, I know you and your wife I think were playing around with it. What are you guys’ thoughts on it?

Ben Greenfield (00:42:23):

Well, look at me. I’ve been using it for the past month. My hair, my skin. No actually I use a Derma roller like once a week and do a clay mask and I’ve been using the GHK after that and I’ve also been, I’m not joking, but put it in my hair. I ran out of mine so now I’m stealing my wife’s and I’ve been putting the serum and the cream on.

Ben Greenfield (00:42:51):

Typically after I’m doing like long walks in the sunshine or after I’d done that Derma roller and mask and subjectively it seems to work better than like any serum or her oil I’ve tried before. That’s all subjective. And again, I’ll be putting my hair cutter out of business here pretty soon. If this quarantine continues, I’m going to be like Samson. It’s doing something, I dig it. It seems like, you know I hadn’t used it before you sent me a couple of bottles there Jay, and I like it. My wife likes it too. It seems to do something for kind of like the firmness, like the tone of the skin. So I like it. It’s very pleasant.

Jay Campbell (00:43:30):

Yeah my wife, just hold on one second Nick. So my wife has been using it, I told you this too, obviously Ben, but she has like a little game plan where she puts on the cream and then she red lights, uses the Juve and then she puts the serum on after and she’s like, it’s the most unbelievable thing ever. And obviously as Nick knows, and I know you know too Ben and probably you do too, Ryan. There’s studies on red light and GHK so obviously me and Nick are talking already. But yeah, it’s pretty interesting. It’s a very, very brazenly profound compound to put on the skin. And as Nick said, maybe its greatest use, and I don’t know if you’ve looked at this Ryan, is against sunburns. I mean it should literally be a giant, commercial grade product sold from Walmart or Target or whatever to like work against sunburns.

Ryan Smith (00:44:23):

Definitely. And just to jump in there as well. One of the things I like to say is that copper in the hair can actually increase the photo sensitivity to hair. And so, I haven’t seen much of the research about sunburns on the face, but he can hurt hair quality if you’re getting a lot of UV exposure.

Ryan Smith (00:44:40):

The other thing that, I just see some comments by Dr [inaudible 00:44:42] on the chat as well, asking about patients who have high copper and is that something to worry about? And one of the things I like to always differentiate is GHK copper has some different effects than just GHK and so, especially as it relates to some STEM cell effects and things like that. The other thing is if you have high copper, doing things like the [inaudible 00:45:02] can be a way to bring that down, but almost never do we see it with just the topical.

Jay Campbell (00:45:07):


Nick Andrews (00:45:09):

Well copper is bound. So realistically with GHK-Cu, if you want to get super technical, I’m sure some very small fraction of the copper does become unbound. But if you look at all the studies out there, as you pointed out, GHK-Cu versus GHK palmitate or any of the other various forms, they have different forms of action. The copper is really the key for its molecular action. So it stays bound. It’s not becoming free within the system.

Jay Campbell (00:45:41):

You guys are too smart for me. Okay, ARA 290. Ryan added this in. It’s a last minute addition to [inaudible 00:45:50] and I apologize. I lacked familiarity with this. So talk about it, Ryan?

Ryan Smith (00:45:54):

Yeah, so this is one that I had to make sure was on here because of some of the results we’ve just been saying lately with it, which have been phenomenal. Right now I’m going into [inaudible 00:46:04] for neuropathic pain, which is obviously the hypersensitivity type pain that really has no explanation. And the reason being is a lot of times, I should say this is a product that mimics erythropoietin. People are probably familiar with erythropoietin EPO for the blood doping effects, particularly for cyclists. Increasing amount of red blood cells. But the other way that erythropoietin works is being synthesized actually by the tissue and more of a paracrine effect. So not produced as a broad thing in the system, but at a tissue level. And whenever it’s produced at a tissue level, it can activate a receptor called the innate prepare receptor, which is as good as it sounds, right?

Ryan Smith (00:46:41):

It is the receptor that down regulates inflammation and helps with repair. And so we’ve seen just amazing effects in a variety of patients on a very, very short basis. This is one thing that has been able to help with neuropathic pain. You do 30 days and if you have reduction in pain to almost a non-existent outwards of six months. It’s a really great product. It’s also been studied to help with lupus and other high inflammatory stress conditions. It also decreases your HBA 1 C upwards of over 0.5 points over the course of 30 days.

Ryan Smith (00:47:12):

So some things that are just crazy and it’s a great, great product which I think you’ll be hearing a lot more about but definitely want to put it on everyone’s radar because it accomplishes something that a lot of other things don’t, which are, how do you get the reactivity of those nerve cells to decrease. And the way that you do it is by stimulating that innate repair receptor which has a lot of benefit across a lot of different types of injury.

Jay Campbell (00:47:36):

Well either of you guys familiar with it? I know you are Nick, are you familiar with it Ben ?

Ben Greenfield (00:47:42):

Yeah, Ryan sent me something to try a few weeks ago and above anything noticed… Because I’ve just been doing some real short tabata sets on the Airdyne. Trying to avoid too many high inflammatory super voluminous workouts during this quarantine and it definitely was a shot in the arm pre-workout. So I was doing something from an oxygen utilization standpoint for sure because I felt like I had a third lung when I was using it.

Jay Campbell (00:48:10):

Wow, that’s awesome. So again, I think you said it Ryan, but I’ll just go over it again so people can hear it. But 30, what do you have? It’s 12 milligrams per milliliter, 7.5 milliliter from you guys. And then it’s four milligrams, which is broken down at… Is it point 33 point 33 milliliters sub Q for 30 days a day, right?

Ryan Smith (00:48:31):

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Four milligrams just for 30 days. And like I said, you get six months of benefit. I mean it goes a really, really long way to just reducing that inflammation, which we all know is obviously not a good thing.

Jay Campbell (00:48:43):

Wow. Beautiful. Okay, cool. So I’m going to move into fat loss. Obviously the first one on fat loss is my favorite. I think a lot of your guys’ favorites. I mean I’ve talked till I’m blue in the face on it, Tesamorelin. Now Ryan, do you want to talk real quick about what’s going to happen with Tesamorelin, as a biologic or not being a biologic. So talk about that.

Ryan Smith (00:49:04):

Yeah and I’ll try and keep it brief because I know we have a long way to go in this but yeah, the Tesamorelin like the HCG, I know I see a lot of physicians on the or prescribers on the comment section. And so these things do not consider biologics because they’re over 40 amino acids. It’s a pretty arbitrary designation that, I’m not sure why they implemented it at 40 amino acids or non chemically synthesized, but as a result Tesamorelin has 44 amino acids and will not be able to be compounded, which means that for the next couple of months, ability to purchase this should be pretty restricted.

Ryan Smith (00:49:39):

The commercial available product, Egrifta, is around $4,000 to $5,000 a month. And so definitely not available at the moment. But the good news for everyone is, it goes off patent on May 25th and so at that point we would expect a generic to be created and for this to be much less expensive. And so we’re hoping that it will still be available as a commercial product in the coming months, although it’s going to be hard to get in the next two.

Jay Campbell (00:50:01):

$5000 a month? Man, you got to love big pharma. [crosstalk 00:50:07]

Ben Greenfield (00:50:07):

Once I found out it was going off patent I started growing it in my herb garden out here, so I’ll have a fresh batch here any day.

Ryan Smith (00:50:16):

I’m going to have to buy some from you for sure. [crosstalk 00:50:21]

Jay Campbell (00:50:21):

I mean, through a tailor made approved physician or anybody, it’s like what, 600 bucks a month Ryan?

Ryan Smith (00:50:27):

Yeah. It’s not [inaudible 00:50:28] it’s a fraction of the cost, and hopefully it’ll be lower once it goes generic.

Jay Campbell (00:50:34):

That’s absolutely insane. I mean, Ben, your thoughts on Tesa just real quick.

Ben Greenfield (00:50:40):

Yeah, I mean like I’ve done a few cycles of it, a five on two off in the mornings, fasted pre-workout and found it to be tremendously beneficial for body comp. So, I’ve always done like a fasted morning workout with some cold thermo, typically some caffeine and Tesa just seem to, and again, I realize most of my anecdotes here are pretty subjective, but I was pretty pleased with the body comp results from using it.

Jay Campbell (00:51:10):

Yeah, I’ve been, obviously I’ve gone on record and said this, it’s in my book, Guaranteed Shredded book, but I don’t find anything as effective and I’ve used low dose microdose growth hormone, the best kind, whatever the kind that comes from Israel, which I can’t think of it right now. Genotropin I think, and I truly think that Tesa has a similar response. You know this too, both of you guys, Nick and Ryan, there’s a nootropic effect of it too in older people, right? I mean, it really is an amazing peptide.

Jay Campbell (00:51:44):

And for people that are looking, as Ben said, to have body composition changes, especially obese people, right? Because we know that it works specifically right in that area attacking adiposity of the trunk, right? So I mean it does so many amazing things. I mean most people realize that it was approved for lipodystrophy in HIV patients, correct Ryan?

Ryan Smith (00:52:06):

Yeah definitely. And one thing I always like to mention as well is, people always ask, “Hey, do I need to cycle the Tesamorelin?” And the answer is not the same answer that we typically give, right? The answer is, it’s not going to down regulate the GHRH receptor is very, very hardy and it won’t down regulate, but you can develop a little bit of resistance to that IGF-1. So we still do recommend cycling it even though you’re not going to have any down regulation at the pituitary level.

Jay Campbell (00:52:31):

Just real quick, Nick, I want your comment, don’t take too long because I am going to tear through these, the rest now so that we can answer these guys’ questions. And by the way, guys, we appreciate you guys watching. There’s a lot of people watching. Nick, your thoughts on Tesa and Ipa together. Absolutely amazing combination, correct?

Nick Andrews (00:52:48):

Honestly, I think that is the predominant combination out there besides TB 500 and BPC 157. If you had to talk about the King of peptides, it’s those two combinations. And there’s some interesting overlap there. So BPC and TB 500 aren’t really going to help you on the weight loss side. But Ipamorelin and Tesamorelin are definitely going to help you on the healing side because yeah, you get an IGF-1, you’re getting the growth hormone effects. I guess what I call the super healing stack, I actually do all four at the same time. So when I popped a knee doing Brazilian jujitsu, I did a stack of all four and honestly in five days I was almost a hundred percent.

Jay Campbell (00:53:34):

Yeah. [crosstalk 00:53:35] When I used Tesa and Ipa together, I gained muscle size. Like it’s honestly mostly intracellular water, but I mean, you look bigger, more vascular, harder. The only thing that I don’t like about it. And again, we’re all genetically biochemically unique and variable, but I hold a little bit more water intracellularly. So like I feel like sometimes it can swell me, but again, because they’re obviously so effective and as you know, Ryan, and obviously Nick and Ben, they won’t be different mechanisms and that’s why they’re so synergistically amazing. Did you want to add anything real quick about Tesa again, Ben, or are you good?

Ben Greenfield (00:54:13):

No, that’s about it.

Jay Campbell (00:54:14):

Okay, cool. Okay, so I’m going to go to MOTS-c. Now let me just first start off by saying that I was never against MOTS-c but as Ryan gave it to me about a year ago and I tried it, my story is I looked at the ceiling all night. It’s very effective, very, very potent. But now in speaking to some other physicians who’ve been working with a lot of patients a lot longer on it, they think it’s amazing, right?

Jay Campbell (00:54:37):

And Ryan, you were screaming at me telling me how amazing it was right at the beginning. So again, you were right. But, Dr Rob uses it, a full bottle, 10 milligram or 10 milliliters once a week for four weeks in a row and then just takes off and says he’ll do a second cycle in a 12 month period. And he says in his patients for adiposity reduction, he’s like, there is nothing like it. And again, he’s a huge Tesa guy too, like all of us, but he’s like, I’m telling you, dude, you got to give MOTS-c more of a chance. But anyway, I’ll go to you Ryan. What are your thoughts?

Ryan Smith (00:55:13):

Yeah, no, I mean the MOTS-c is one that could have gone on longevity, right? I mean it’s a product that does a little bit of both. Increasing the mitochondria biogenesis, looks to be a good thing for a lot of different issues but particularly allowing the mitochondria just to react to metabolic stress. And so, it’s like almost like a type two diabetes narrative. Because we know that children who are obese have less of this floating around. And so we know that, particularly it can be an intervention that can help by increasing that energy expenditure, allowing the mitochondria to do their job.

Jay Campbell (00:55:45):

Beautiful. Ben, any thoughts on MOTS-c?

Ben Greenfield (00:55:48):

Yeah, that’s the main reason I addressed it in the anti-aging chapter in Boundless is the addressing the mitochondrial degradation with age and the data I’ve seen on that. So I think it is impressive and definitely something that, I’ve done a cycle pretty similar for you just described and, and will continue that on a yearly basis based on what I’ve seen.

Jay Campbell (00:56:10):

Yeah, I agree. Anything you want to add Nick?

Nick Andrews (00:56:13):

Yeah, so you’re talking about fat loss in general, personal experience from conversations with you, Jay, and a few other people. I’ve kind of seen two different types of how people respond, right? I see, obviously like yourself and some other people I’ve spoken to. I know Ben’s talked about it. Ipamorelin and Tesamorelin, some people respond super well to it. Some people don’t.

Nick Andrews (00:56:39):

They’re great for me for healing and honestly building muscle mass, if I stack Ipamorelin and Tesamorelin, it’s like I can’t stop putting enough weight on the bar every time I lift. But I don’t see a lot of fat loss. Whereas MOTS-c and I know we’re going to get onto five amino in a minute, for myself and other people who don’t really seem to respond well in terms of fat loss to Tesa and Ipamorelin. People like that, just from my anecdotal experiences tend to respond very well to MOTS-c and five amino.

Jay Campbell (00:57:14):

Okay, so last two, and I’m not going to gloss over them to get into muscle because we’ve already talked about it, but obviously Ipa and CGC are obviously, probably the most prescribed now in the world as a combination for their synergies. I have to say I’m a huge proponent of Ipamorelin, if you’re going to use like one peptide in isolation for longterm because obviously it doesn’t do anything to endogenous, pituitary pulsatile release of growth hormone. It also doesn’t affect prolactin or cortisol. And a couple other different things too, but just real quick summary, Ryan, of why Ipamorelin and CGC combined is such an amazing array.

Ben Greenfield (00:57:54):

Yeah. Well, I mean it’s synergistic, right? And then you’re hitting two different sectors on the pituitary, the growth hormone releasing hormone receptor and the growth hormone secretagogue receptor-

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:58:04]

Ryan Smith (00:58:00):

Growth hormone releasing hormone receptor in the growth hormone secretagogue receptor. And I think the reason you might, Jay, like the Ipamorelin is because the growth hormone secretagogue receptor is found all over the body, right?

Jay Campbell (00:58:10):


Ryan Smith (00:58:10):

I mean it has a lot of different effects and it is really promising for a lot of different things. And so I agree that some of those GHRPs and Ipamorelin, there’s sort of no substitute for. But when combined with the CJC, it’s one of those opportunities that, it’s a low cost alternative and a really good one to punch, to have some really good synergistic IGF-1 activity and increase in growth hormone.

Jay Campbell (00:58:34):

Well, now what about cycling of them? I mean, is five on, two off, for four to six months fine? Or should they just be doing three month cycles and taking couple months off? I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

Ryan Smith (00:58:46):

Yeah. So and this is something that I’ve been passionate about, and no one seems to care about, but it’s the growth hormone secretagogue receptor, is what is downregulated, right?

Jay Campbell (00:58:58):

Of course.

Ryan Smith (00:58:58):

When people say, “Oh, I had this fantastic response to some Ipamorelin GHRP-2 and GHRP-6 and then three months later, nothing.” What they’re talking about is that downregulation of that growth hormone secretagogue receptor. What it does is it essentially, they start building up a receptor that looks exactly the same, but it’s nonfunctional. It doesn’t create a lot of these intracellular results even though you’re stimulating it. And that’s the downregulation. So you can really go as hard as you want on the growth hormone releasing hormones, like Tesamorelin, like CJC. But whenever you go too high or too long on the Ipamorelin, you can cause some issues and so-

Jay Campbell (00:59:26):


Ryan Smith (00:59:27):

So that’s why we usually recommend the five on, seven days off. But if you keep it at a low dose and do that five and seven, then you really can do it for a long time without any interruption.

Jay Campbell (00:59:36):

So, just for a dosage real quick I mean, and again guys we’re going to, all this stuff will be printed out and you circulate it, so you guys will be able to see it. But for men, I have on here 200 to 300 micrograms at night and women little bit, probably half that dosage, 100 to 200, or does it really matter?

Ryan Smith (00:59:56):

Yeah. The other thing is the [inaudible 00:59:59] saturation dose for those growth hormone releasing hormones is a hundred micrograms.

Jay Campbell (01:00:01):


Ryan Smith (01:00:02):

But I always like to say is that, there’s receptors all over the body. There’s receptors on STEM cells.

Jay Campbell (01:00:06):


Ryan Smith (01:00:07):

Bone, adipose tissue. And so what we’ve found through just many years of using it, is that going above 100 is probably what we see the best results on. And so usually we would recommend a 200/200 dosage rather than the 100/100.

Jay Campbell (01:00:22):

Right? Exactly. Okay. That’s what I got. Okay. So muscle strength, vitality. So the first one is 5-Amino, which obviously is my favorite thing of all time. It’s technically a small molecule. It’s not a peptide. It does so many amazing things. You know, Ben was talking about reduction, if not elimination, of DOMS, Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness. I mean I just started, truth be told, a magical package just came to me recently and I just started my 5-Amino. And I did pushups last night, because I’m a pushup king guys. Okay. And I did pushups last and it was like, 24 hours after, 36 hours after taking 150 milligrams. And I was like, what the F? This stuff is unbelievable. So, talk a little bit about 5-Amino real quick Ryan, and why it’s such a diverse compound.

Ryan Smith (01:01:15):

Yeah. So again, a huge fan. I’ve told my personal story as well.

Jay Campbell (01:01:19):


Ryan Smith (01:01:19):

From an athletic performance standpoint, which was nothing short of shocking even to me.

Jay Campbell (01:01:24):

[crosstalk 01:01:24] Yeah.

Ryan Smith (01:01:25):

Yeah. And so love it. Again, it’s mechanism of action is… Looks to be diverse, but by inhibiting the NMNT, you’re obviously increasing the ability for the NAD salvage pathway to do its job. And then as a result, you’re increasing intracellular levels of NAD. And unlike a lot of the nicotinamide ride beside the NMN, this has better pharmacokinetics, which make it sort of long lasting. And so that’s obviously interesting and then the other thing that it does is it sort of activates senescent muscle STEM cells.

Jay Campbell (01:01:54):


Ryan Smith (01:01:54):

And it puts them back into crescence. And so, to what degree that has been the mechanism of action for the athletic performance versus the NAD, or maybe 50/50, who knows? But regardless, it’s had some pretty phenomenal performance effects across the board.

Jay Campbell (01:02:11):

Real quick before you go Ben. It’s just it’s so, like I say diverse. But really, just it’s so multifunctional. It does so many things. Like you can definitely use that at a hundred, for me, my personal experience subjectively, 150 milligrams. And I feel like I can eat anything I want and I literally am not going to gain any body fat. It has this amazing ability to either use for energy or for enhancing thermogenesis, cellular metabolic rate, whatever. But before I go to you, Nick, you’re fine. Ben, what are your thoughts on 5-Amino?

Ben Greenfield (01:02:43):

I’ve never used it, so I can’t really comment on it unfortunately. So I don’t have a lot to say about it. And also unfortunately, I have another call in about two minutes. I got to-

Jay Campbell (01:02:56):

That’s okay.

Ben Greenfield (01:02:58):

[crosstalk 01:02:58] Hop off here and get off too. But yeah, I mean it looks fantastic. But I don’t have any personal experience whatsoever with it. So couldn’t tell you. [crosstalk 01:03:05] I’m happy to try some and crank out a-

Jay Campbell (01:03:09):

As- [inaudible 01:03:10] [crosstalk 01:03:10]

Ben Greenfield (01:03:09):

Three times as many pushups as you do. For sure. And then I can give you-

Jay Campbell (01:03:13):

[crosstalk 01:03:13] care package on its way.

Ben Greenfield (01:03:16):

I’ll do it and I’ll do the pushups. Do the old push up test. All right you guys. Hey, thanks. Sorry I got a boogie early and sorry I was on late. My wife was a little ill this morning and so I’m on double duty with the homeschool and the kids. And I got to go prepare dinner and also get a call in. But thanks everybody for tuning in and have fun fellas.

Jay Campbell (01:03:43):

Ben we love you man. [crosstalk 01:03:43]

Ben Greenfield (01:03:43):

All right, later guys.

Nick Andrews (01:03:43):

Thanks Ben.

Jay Campbell (01:03:43):

[inaudible 01:03:43] brother. Okay so 5-Amino real quick, your thoughts. Nick?

Nick Andrews (01:03:49):

Yes. Well I said before. Honestly I absolutely love 5-Amino. I’ve experimented from 75 milligrams up to 150. And the biggest thing for me. Like Ryan, definitely noticed the athletic effects. When we can get in the gym, I lose a lot. Definitely noticed it there. Not necessarily in power, but when you start, get to your normal failure point, it’s probably not giving me a lot more reps, but you feel the energy.

Jay Campbell (01:04:23):


Nick Andrews (01:04:23):

You’re not burning out as quickly. If you’re sparring, just the energy level is obviously higher, as you’ve said [Joe 01:04:33] . The big thing that really stood out for me is, people who don’t respond well to Ipamorelin or Tesamorelin, especially for abdominal fat tissue. Just from people I’ve spoken to, 5-Amino can be like freaking magic.

Jay Campbell (01:04:50):

Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Smith (01:04:51):


Jay Campbell (01:04:52):

No, it’s absolutely amazing. Anything else you want to add about 5-Amino Ryan, that you might’ve figured out recently?

Ryan Smith (01:04:58):

Well, yeah. Yeah. You know, a sort of pro tip on the 5-Amino is a lot of people have said, “Hey, I’ve used it and didn’t get a response.” It is a sort of oil soluble or lipid soluble and so take it with food, take it with the amino, you might get some better results.

Jay Campbell (01:05:12):

Yeah. I agree. I take it actually with food usually. I have a lot of thoughts on 5-Amino. What about downregulation? Or what about again, like everything else cycling? What do you think is, should you go two months, take a month off, I mean what are your thoughts?

Ryan Smith (01:05:27):

Yeah, so with the 5-Amino, we don’t have the same amount of data we have for a lot of these. And so as a result, we always recommend short courses, right? We don’t want-

Jay Campbell (01:05:37):


Ryan Smith (01:05:37):

One of the things it’s inhibiting is that NMNT and we don’t want NMNT to be increased as a result of us supplementing this. And then have more adipose tissue or more senescence and so we recommend usually a one month being mixed into the course here.

Jay Campbell (01:05:51):

Yeah, no, I agree, 100%. I mean, LA. It’s like everything, right? Like what goes up, must come down. So there’s no reason to continually overstimulate your body’s receptors and just your gene, just the variation of all these different things working in your body. Your body is always attempting to achieve homeostasis. So you might as well again, rotate these things. Okay so, the next one is, so I have Ipa and have PEG-MGF and I have Epicatechin. I’ll let you guys talk about both of those because they’re very similar right in their ultimate response. And again, these are more muscle gain peptides. So for people that struggle to gain muscle, or even people that are injured, or have acute burn, or traumatic inflammatory injuries, or something like that. These will put muscle back on. But talk a little bit about both of those real quick, Ryan and I’ll get to you first, Nick.

Ryan Smith (01:06:48):

Yeah, so I mean the Epicatechin’s one I like and the PEG-MGF. What we’re talking about here is pretty large proteins, right? The Epicatechin’s a small molecule but it’s modulating myostatin and follistatin levels to basically reduce the degradation of muscle and sort of optimize that ratio, to make sure they we’re increasing strength and muscle. And so some of the studies, even in a short amount of time, even orally, have shown that you can get a seven to 10% increase in hand strength just over seven days. Right? Which is pretty incredible.

Ryan Smith (01:07:17):

And so the Epicatechin is really exciting because, at the moment it’s the only thing that modulates well, I would say that follistatin level. A lot of people think of those follistatin bulls, that sort of had those genetic factors and they’re just massive, massive bulls, right? It’s obviously not the same thing, but it’s definitely a benefit. And in the PEG-MGF, is usually expressed with muscle stretching overload, right? So those down-sets and that one’s also really interesting because it reactivates muscle stem cells, these satellite cells and muscle, to cause not only just the hypertrophy you see with muscle, but some additional muscle hyperplasia. And so by doing that it sort of activates a whole different pathway of muscle gain, which is pretty exciting.

Jay Campbell (01:08:04):

Nick, your thoughts on it?

Nick Andrews (01:08:07):

So I’d actually pose a question to Ryan because you definitely have more data on this, given all your clients. There are a couple of studies with Epicatechin that show, well obviously it has the muscle growth effects we’re talking about, that natural output actually decreases very shortly. So you have that initial peak but then you have a drop off. So it almost seems like, based on the research, you would want to run very, very short cycles of Epicatechin. Maybe two weeks at most, then maybe with a month off, just shooting from the hip.

Ryan Smith (01:08:42):

Yeah well, so unfortunately most of the studies are not very long studies. Right? So it’s hard to say with certainty. But I would say that the other thing is a lot of our patients and physicians don’t prescribe this as a standalone. It’s almost never as a, hard to look at in a vacuum.

Nick Andrews (01:08:58):


Ryan Smith (01:08:58):

And so I would think [crosstalk 01:09:00] that from our results, we have seen pretty sustained increases in muscle. Performance isn’t as well documented and so it’s harder for me to speculate on.

Jay Campbell (01:09:07):

So, okay. So then just real quick for everybody, because they’re going to be asking this question. Dosage of Epicatechin, you guys sell it at five milliliter, hundred milligrams per milliliter vial. I have under 50 milligrams, which is basically a 0.5 milliliters daily. Is that what you guys, is that what you’re going to recommend, let’s say for a short course, like a month, two to four weeks?

Ryan Smith (01:09:31):

Yeah. So most people will do around 500 milligrams orally. Whenever you’re doing the injectable, the dose can widely range, but generally it’s much less than that. And so yeah, what the dose that obviously that you just talked about is, I would say, a pretty standard.

Jay Campbell (01:09:47):


Ryan Smith (01:09:47):

But generally if you’re doing it as an oral, that 500 milligrams is pretty spot on. And that’s on a daily basis. With or without food, doesn’t matter.

Jay Campbell (01:09:55):

Okay, cool. Okay. So then the last one is, for muscle vitality strength is LGD-4033, which is a SARM. Which is a selective androgen receptor modulator. Which obviously again, I’m not a big fan of SARMs. Ryan’s convinced me there’s a couple that are worth it. When I look at them and I know this, and again it’s anecdotally, we don’t have studies, right? And I talked to [John Cann 00:01:10:14] and stuff like that. He loves this one too. And the bottom line is, a lot of the SARMs are inhibitory, even though they say they’re not and they’re specifically not supposed to be. And so I always say well, testosterone’s the biggest tool in the tool belt. It’s a lot cheaper. It’s not as inhibitory, blah, blah, blah. But anyway, on this one, talk a little bit about LGD-4033 and why it’s worthy of this discussion.

Ryan Smith (01:10:42):

I’ll kick it off, if you don’t mind Nick.

Nick Andrews (01:10:44):


Ryan Smith (01:10:44):

But yeah, the LGD is… The SARMs world is a pretty crowded world. They got things like the RAD140, the S4, the S22 and the one that it just consistently performed for us, has been the LGD. [crosstalk 01:10:59] It also has some human clinical trials, which are pretty promising and showing some increased muscle mass. And it’s not perfect, right? We’ve talked about it before-

Jay Campbell (01:11:08):


Ryan Smith (01:11:08):

The decrease in LH and FSH, the effects on cholesterol. But one thing that you can’t deny is the increasingly muscle mass and performance. I mean it, most people will tend to say [crosstalk 01:11:20] that their muscles feel tighter even within a week. A lot of that tends to be, like you mentioned earlier for those people who have those, the fluid retention in the collagen, as you said, the glucagon storage type things. Their muscles will start to feel full and harder almost immediately. And that goes away when you stop using it. But with that being said, you can still get some pretty consistent gains even over the course of three weeks to four weeks. And that’s the reason that it consistently works well. And that’s the reason that we’ve had so many people who prescribe it.

Jay Campbell (01:11:49):

So would you use it, and both you guys can answer this, would it be worthy? And you and I have had this discussion before I know, but for the audience, is it worth using when a person’s already optimized on testosterone?

Ryan Smith (01:12:04):

Yeah. Not as much, right? You’re not going to experience nearly as much of a difference. It might add a little bit, added in the benefit. Really the only time people use it whenever they’re on also hormone replacements for that extra added kick, or if they want to try and modulate the testosterone therapy levels down-

Jay Campbell (01:12:20):


Ryan Smith (01:12:20):

To reduce some of the side effects they might be experiencing such as acne or the hair loss

Jay Campbell (01:12:24):


Ryan Smith (01:12:25):

Or even the BPH type things. And so the answer I guess is, probably not very effective as an add on. But if you’re looking for, even in my new gain, it could be helpful.

Jay Campbell (01:12:37):

You can answer this Nick, but so if you were going to, one or two, right? You’re like me, you’re on testosterone, you’re fully optimized, you’ve got low circulating insulin, you’re using Metformin, you’re on a thyroid optimization plan and you wanted to add one slight bump or ancillary. Would you choose Epicatechin over LGD- 4033?

Nick Andrews (01:13:02):

Everyday, all day long.

Jay Campbell (01:13:04):


Nick Andrews (01:13:04):

So I’ll be less nice than Ryan. If somebody applies, especially if they’re already on some sort of a TRT, hormone replacement therapy. I don’t think LGD makes sense at all, frankly. I’m not saying Ryan’s wrong.

Jay Campbell (01:13:22):


Nick Andrews (01:13:22):

A lot of this is personal opinion. Honestly, I think if you’re already on a hormone therapy and you’re looking for a bump, I think you microdose hMG. We were talking about this the other day. [crosstalk 01:13:34] 0.75 IU every other day. I think you’re going to, did I lose you?

Jay Campbell (01:13:42):

No, you’re still there dude. You just got shitty internet. But yeah, you were talking about hMG the other day and I joked and said you had to throw something in there that’s not on our list. But yeah, menopausal gonadotropin does do some things and I don’t want to go too far off the beaten path of that, but… Okay so, Ryan you would agree though with Epicatechin would be best, right?

Ryan Smith (01:14:08):

Yeah. Definitely. And it’s a different mechanism, right?

Jay Campbell (01:14:10):


Ryan Smith (01:14:10):

I mean you’re getting a lot of stimulation from [LGP 01:14:13] from testosterone.

Jay Campbell (01:14:13):


Ryan Smith (01:14:14):

So go different path.

Jay Campbell (01:14:15):

Okay. Okay. So we’re going to go to longevity and I know there’s a ton of questions and I appreciate we still have a lot of people watching. We didn’t actually have a giant Ben Greenfield dip. I thought we would like lose everybody. We did lose Nick whose internet- [crosstalk 01:14:29]

Ryan Smith (01:14:28):

Just you and me now.

Jay Campbell (01:14:29):

[crosstalk 01:14:29] He said he was going to have internet problems though because he’s got storms in his area. So whatever, it is what it is. Okay. So longevity.

Ryan Smith (01:14:37):

Well, it’s a good transition to longevity because you and I are still here.

Jay Campbell (01:14:43):

So yeah, longevity and we got cognition and then we’ll answer questions. As long as you guys are willing to stay here and obviously answer questions, which I know that there’ll be plenty. Okay, so longevity. Sorry about that Nick, you’re back. So longevity. So the first one, I’ll go to you first Nick, because I know you’re a big fan of this, but Epitalon, which is a synthetic version of the polypeptide Epithalamion, if I pronounced that right, which is naturally produced. Obviously this increases a person’s resistance to all sorts of stressors in life. It’s a profound anti-aging longevity peptide. But talk a little bit about Epitalon, Nick. Assuming you have [crosstalk 01:15:24] there you go.

Nick Andrews (01:15:24):


Jay Campbell (01:15:26):

Uh oh. You there?

Nick Andrews (01:15:32):

So, Epitalon. Yeah, I’m here. Can you hear me?

Jay Campbell (01:15:36):

Yeah we got you, go ahead.

Ryan Smith (01:15:37):

Uh oh.

Jay Campbell (01:15:38):

[crosstalk 01:15:38]. You’re speaking on Epitalogy.

Nick Andrews (01:15:38):

This is.

Jay Campbell (01:15:45):

Go, if you’re there Nick, go. [inaudible 01:15:51]

Nick Andrews (01:15:51):

I’ll go. If you hear me, you hear me.

Jay Campbell (01:15:54):


Nick Andrews (01:15:54):

So Epitalon, acts largely systemically, it’s interesting because it acts on the [Telmerones 00:01:15:59]. It acts actually in a number of ways. And so getting into a little bit of biology there. Obviously [Telemerones 01:16:08] how many times a cell can reproduce and that impacts everything. You gave the senescent cell anti-aging effects. And interestingly enough, since we were talking skincare before, Epitalon is actually another one that can actually have a really big impact from a cosmoceutical perspective. A lot of people aren’t familiar with that aspect of it. It actually, as an interesting background, I think we’re going to talk about bioregulators.

Jay Campbell (01:16:41):


Nick Andrews (01:16:41):

But Epitalon is like several of these compounds, actually come out of Russia. Originally where a lot of the original research was done. And the way they found these was to say, let’s look at each of these organ systems and what, each organ system essentially has unique biopeptides that act locally there and as you age they drop off, they become less effective. That’s where a lot of our essentially peptide technologies come from, is looking at what Russia was doing and then developing it further here. So, I’m not sure if you guys can still hear me.

Ryan Smith (01:17:19):

Yeah [crosstalk 01:17:19].

Jay Campbell (01:17:19):

Yeah, we hear you. Yeah no, we’re there. We’re just letting you talk. It’s all well said. Did you want to add anything to it Ryan?. I mean obviously you guys.

Ryan Smith (01:17:29):


Jay Campbell (01:17:29):

I know you love this peptide, it’s an amazing longevity peptide, but what can you add that Nick didn’t say?

Ryan Smith (01:17:35):

Not a lot to add. I have a pretty different opinion on this one, which we can go over a little bit later.

Jay Campbell (01:17:41):


Ryan Smith (01:17:42):

But I do like it and I can’t wait to see more data and we’re in the process of creating some of that data. So I’ll be excited to come back on and share it. I was in Moscow, in November. I talked to Dr. Kabat-Zinn and some of his team. And so, he does a lot of these things, but I think that the Epitalon is probably his hallmark product and can do a lot of things to do that biomodulation.

Jay Campbell (01:18:04):

So what don’t you like about it?

Ryan Smith (01:18:07):

Well the one thing is, it’s known for its telomere study. Which was a 33% increase in telomerase, telomere length in lung fibroblast. And as far as I know, and I’ve been told by a couple of people, that study has not been reproducible. And so- [crosstalk 01:18:25]

Jay Campbell (01:18:25):

Wait a minute, what study is?

Ryan Smith (01:18:28):

Well yeah, exactly. And so Bill Andrews, the telomere scientist, had said that he’d tried the same experiment without results. And the other thing is that the way that it’s currently distributed in Russia it seen to be a multilevel marketing thing, which it doesn’t inspire confidence. But with that being said I’ve seen anecdotal results. I’ve seen results, I’ve seen telomeres increase. So it’s just hard to reconcile some of those ideas.

Jay Campbell (01:18:52):

Okay, so I’m going to speed through this so we can be fair to you guys and answer questions at the same time. We still have a lot of people watching. Okay, so pinealon, if I pronounced that right. Ryan, what’s pinealon and why is it worth on being on this podcast?

Ryan Smith (01:19:07):

Yeah, well it’s another one of those bioregulators. And you know, Nick probably has more experience than me on this one because we haven’t used it, to be honest. And so I’ll turn it over to him because I don’t have a ton of anecdotal information on it.

Jay Campbell (01:19:19):

Wait a minute. Can you say that again? No, just kidding. Go ahead Nick.

Nick Andrews (01:19:27):

So pinealon is another one of those, came out of Russia. Dr. Kabat-Zinn’s work. So interesting thing about this, just from the anecdotal evidence. Honestly it’s working in the pineal gland in the brain. A lot of people, you can get it here in the U.S. as an injectable. If you get it from Russia, it’s probably an oral tablet. From anecdotal evidence, I’ve actually seen people have, struggle with almost being a little bit reactive to it. They’re also taking higher doses SubQ. So from personal experience, I’ve seen people have more experience honestly with a lot of the bioregulator peptides in the oral form, you find them coming out of Russia. Just personal guess, I’m not trying to build a medical theory here, but looking at it, biopeptides are powerful.

Nick Andrews (01:20:25):

They’re also slightly different than some of the synthetic peptides we’re talking about here in the podcast today. These are generally peptides that are naturally within the organ systems that they were originally extracted from. They’re powerful stuff. They work orally. That’s been proven through a lot of Russian data. A lot of people aren’t familiar with it because a lot of the studies are still in Russian. A lot of the work hasn’t been replicated in the West. But pinealon is, let’s also be very frank, it’s not like BPC-157. You’re not going to take it and suddenly be like, holy cow everything’s changed.

Jay Campbell (01:21:03):


Nick Andrews (01:21:04):

Most people, you give them BPC-157, I hurt my knee and my shoulder, I pulled something, whatever. And in a week they could be, holy cow you were right. With pinealon, the exception that might be that, is I talked to several people who’ve actually been working with PTSD and similar cortisol stress issues. And some people there will say within a couple of weeks. So yeah, I can definitely tell a difference and all he’s feeling is stress, is burned out, is wired. So once you get anecdotal evidence and of one.

Nick Andrews (01:21:43):

But I find that really interesting, because if you look at the systems it’s working on, for a healthy person, generally healthy. Are you really going to see much? Probably not, it’s more of a longterm strategy. I’ve talked to several people who have been working with PTSD, basically veterans. Clearly have a lot of stress damage built up given what they’ve been doing. And I find that really interesting because you have people who are highly compromised from a stress hormone perspective and now multiple entirely independent reports of, yeah I was definitely noticing a positive difference in a couple of weeks.

Jay Campbell (01:22:24):

Okay, that’s cool. So Ryan, you added this one at the last second. So obviously, I know you want to talk about but SS-31.

Ryan Smith (01:22:31):

Yeah, the SS-31. I mean I could pontificate on this one because I’m so excited about it. I am working on a research trial with this, with Dr. Ahvie Herskowitz from San Francisco. We’re going to be doing stuff on the SS-31. This is a product, Ben was obviously talking to you about the mitochondrial dysfunction that happens as we age. A lot of that is due to that inner mitochondrial membrane, which is curved in a lot of places, starting to relax a little bit. And whenever they relax the electron transport chain gets a little bit farther apart. And so the SS- 31, the one thing that always grabs people’s attention is that one injection of the SS-31, just one is the ATP equivalent of six months of daily endurance and endurance training exercise.

Ryan Smith (01:23:12):

And so, I mean that’s printed in one of its hallmark papers. It works in just about everything you would anticipate. It helps with reducing cardiovascular events. Helps with improving heart tissue. It helps with decreasing foam cell deposits. Helps with cartilage repair. It helps with the brain. It does so many amazing things. I was saying that this will probably be our most popular peptide in just a couple of years. It’s a product which is great for all things anti-aging. And one of the big things it also does, is enhance the skeletal muscle as you age as well. I mean, people can gain five to 10 pounds of skeletal muscle, which is really significant whenever they get over their sixties. And so this is one that I think, we’re going to be a hallmark anti-aging product. But definitely one of the best as we talk about longevity, due to its effect on the mitochondria.

Jay Campbell (01:24:01):

Okay. Well I think I need to have a [crosstalk 01:24:03] or something, maybe? Okay.

Ryan Smith (01:24:07):

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. [crosstalk 01:24:07] I think I know someone.

Jay Campbell (01:24:11):

Okay. [crosstalk 01:24:12]

Nick Andrews (01:24:11):

So Ryan.

Jay Campbell (01:24:12):

Oh, go ahead Nick.

Nick Andrews (01:24:14):

I was going to say. So Ryan, you’re the guru on this. I know a little bit about it, not a significant amount. In terms of the mitochondrial energy production perspective. Obviously this does a lot of things beyond C60. But when you kind of look at, I guess there are multiple proposed pathways for C60, but in terms of how you’re eating, you’re not upregulating, but the way you’re improving the efficiency of the mitochondrial processes, would you say that ultimately it’s somewhat similar to C60, or parallel, or how would you compare those two?

Ryan Smith (01:24:53):

Yeah, so I don’t have a ton of experience with C60 either. Honestly, what I know is from you all and so, you do better at probably comparing those two than me. But yeah, I mean it’s all about that mitochondria [inaudible 00:27:04]. What it does essentially binds the cardiolipin and just increases ATP level production. So it allows your mitochondria to do what they’re supposed to do. And that often times means making sure that cells don’t undergo apoptosis. And so it keeps these cells alive. That’s why I’ve been studying with things like ALS, in addition to its effects on all of these other anti-aging factors. And so from what I know about C60, it seems like they’d have a lot in common.

Jay Campbell (01:25:31):

All right, so this podcast has been absolutely mind blowing and again, for if you guys just joined us late, I promise that everything’s going to get transcribed tonight. I’ll send this to Ryan, so he can send it out to his doctors. And then of course I’ll send it to Ben too and then I’ll have it on my site and everything too. And then it’ll also be on the YouTube channel. And I am going to answer, we’re going to get your questions in a second.

Jay Campbell (01:25:49):

So we got one last section and that’s cognition. And I’m going to go really, really fast. I’m going to give you guys each a spot on all these. So I have here now and I don’t think you added another one. And obviously we have a peptide bioregulators, which Nick, you can just at the very end summarize. And it is obviously a very big advancement, or coming. And I know the Russians have been using it for a long time. And then we got mRNA stuff too. But so cognition, I’ve got Cerebrolysin, Dihexa, which I’ve used both. Not a big fan of either. Didn’t really get the effect. I’ve heard some people say, I mean some people say Dihexa at five milligrams is insane and I’ve taken it up to 40 milligrams and it’s not Modafinil to me. It’s not even close.

Jay Campbell (01:26:33):

Cerebrolysin, I felt a little bit better, or a little bit more of an effect than I did with Dihexa but I’m going to let you talk about it Ryan. And then the other ones are FGL and of course C(max). And I know they’re not as big, from a cognitive standpoint as the other two. But Ryan, your thoughts on Cerebrolysin and Dihexa

Ryan Smith (01:26:51):

Yeah, Cerebrolysin obviously is one I’ve said I’d love forever. Pretty good due to its research on the [inaudible 00:28:54], type variance. Got a lot of diverse research from everything from stroke to TBI to.

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:27:04]

Ryan Smith (01:27:00):

It got a lot of diverse research from everything, from stroke, to TBI, to neuropathy. Due to all of its effects on just everything neurological, it’s sort of a hallmark and fundamental product that our physicians love. Usually whenever they find a patient it works for, they absolutely never leave it. So it’s got some great both acute and longterm types of treatment strategies. Again, it is a purification of porcine brain tissue, and so it’s a biologic, which is why we’re not able to do it anymore. But it’s approved in 72 countries, and hopefully one day it’ll be allowed in the U.S., because some of its effects have been absolutely incredible.

Jay Campbell (01:27:38):

Well, let me just say Trump just fired Bill Gates and [inaudible 01:27:42]. So why can’t we fire the [inaudible 00:00:48]. You never know.

Ryan Smith (01:27:51):

Yeah, well, I hate to say it, it gives me an opportunity a little bit as well, but a lot of these peptides are looking like they might not become available for much longer. So I would direct people to save peptides if they’re interested in saving some of these things, because otherwise it’s going to be much harder to get. We can always talk about that on a later show.

Jay Campbell (01:28:10):

No. We’re going to save that for the end of the show. But, everybody, I’ll post it too. But Let your opinion be known, tell them why you have to use peptides. I mean, listen, I have no allegiance to anybody, I’m just obviously an independent Google doctor. But truthfully, if we do not have access to these peptides, the world is tragically losing, because these things enhance life, they heal, they help people, they give people an entirely different experience of existence, who have been suffering, and it’s a joke. I mean, I don’t want to be labored because I want to get through this, but…

Nick Andrews (01:28:52):

Well, Jay look-

Jay Campbell (01:28:53):

Go ahead.

Nick Andrews (01:28:54):

Put it in another way Jay, look at it from a risk perspective, okay. Something as simple as, I tore up my knee, I tore up my shoulder, would you rather give somebody a subcutaneous injection for four weeks that has been given to people in massive doses with no negative effects, and if it works, great, what’s your worst case scenario? You’ve got nothing out of it. Versus we’re going to put you in an anesthesia, cut you open and then sir, cutting tissue out. Yeah, honestly, it’s absurd that you don’t start at the least invasive level that’s shown to work and we’re better than surgery in many cases.

Jay Campbell (01:29:32):

Yeah, no, it’s well said. I’m glad you said that.

Jay Campbell (01:29:35):

Dihexa Ryan.

Ryan Smith (01:29:37):

Yeah. Sorry I didn’t mean to ignore Dihexa. I do like Dihexa. Especially, in some of these animal models and some of these other trials, it looks to be a really good manner of fixing all types of cognitive dysfunction. Mimics the pattern of side growth factor, activating the [inaudible 01:29:51] receptor to cause a lot of neurogenesis, [inaudible 01:29:54] dried out growth and repair and recovery of a lot of neurological tissues. So more of the Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s type, really bad off neurodegeneration. But a lot of people like it as a nootropic as well.

Ryan Smith (01:30:06):

Like you, I haven’t had a great result just as a general nootropic, but some people do and definitely want to pass that along as well.

Nick Andrews (01:30:11):

They do.

Jay Campbell (01:30:12):

Yeah. Dr. Michael Moeller, gets a shout out on this podcast. [inaudible 01:30:17], it’s the greatest thing ever. He got me all excited when you guys sent me something and I was like, “Arg, I never really felt it.” But you’re right, we’re all biochemically unique, we’re all different.

Jay Campbell (01:30:26):

Okay. So then FGL and Cmax, just quick thoughts on FGL and Cmax. I’ve used FGL, you guys have sent me up FGL, very similar. I know, it’s a good thing in theory, I mean not in theory but in research, but again, not very noticeable to me personally, but just quick thoughts on those.

Ryan Smith (01:30:45):

Yeah, I love FGL. FGL is probably one of my favorites, and my results have been great for memory and sharper cognition. I love it. A lot of people don’t have the same results, but some people do. I don’t know if it’s, I have a neural cell adhesion molecule deficiency or whatever it might be. But…

Jay Campbell (01:31:04):

[crosstalk 01:31:04] bro.

Ryan Smith (01:31:06):

Yeah, I mean, who knows. It’s actually, neural cell adhesion molecule deficiency has been linked to depression and linked to a couple of other things. We know they exist, we have no way of testing them and so this might be a good method for whenever we can finally detect those, a good method for helping overcome some of that. Obviously it’s been studied mostly in Alzheimer’s with really good results in the elderly. I’m excited to see where that goes from a development standpoint, because when everyone is getting out of things like Alzheimer’s research, this FGL is looking promising and they’re sort of doubling down and so excited to see the future of that one. Definitely love it.

Jay Campbell (01:31:42):

Beautiful. Nick, did you want to add anything about FGL or Cmax?

Nick Andrews (01:31:47):

The only things I’d generally add is that, I’m like you, with Dihexa, I’ve gone up to 50 milligrams and no observable effects for me. I have one role a little bit different here. FGL loop, same thing, no obvious effects. The research rocks solid behind it, I have no doubt on that. Just, from the nootropic perspective, obvious effects. The only place I’ve seen anything with any of those is Cmax, I have one milligram to 1.5 milligram. If I’m going to have to work late, I’m going to be up late, I’ve already been like two thirds of my day and have a lot left to do, I’ll be honest, one milligram to 1.5 milligram of Cmax and it’s settled. It’s not like you’ve pounded caffeine or something crazy like that, it’s just everything is smooth, like you’re not wired, you don’t feel you’re on top, you’re just not tired. I just rip through stuff, but I don’t have an issue going to sleep. So I [crosstalk 01:32:46]

Jay Campbell (01:32:47):

But it’s not like a micro dose of LSD or 1P, right?

Nick Andrews (01:32:51):

No, nothing like that.

Jay Campbell (01:32:54):

Not that I would know anything about that.

Jay Campbell (01:32:57):

Okay. So real quick Ryan, just a summary on the cognition peptides for people that have brain injuries, honestly TBI, neurodegenerative disease, obviously Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, dementia, any of that. Which of those four are your favorite for that type of indication?

Ryan Smith (01:33:18):

Yeah, I think that the research in Dihexa is probably the best for the most serious. Then if you’re doing something like a TBI or stroke, I think that the number of studies done on the cerebrolysin, you can get it in the first three to six months, do the cerebrolysin, it’s great. Then if you’re doing more of just the… I should say the recreational nootropics, the FGL and the Cmax are probably where I would go there. Yeah, I would say that is general summary, that you can get a lot of that, and it’s anecdotal and especially personally anecdotal, but I would say that, that generally is where the data lies.

Jay Campbell (01:33:51):

Beautiful. Okay. So Nick, you’re going to give a very quick summary and then we’re going to answer. Are you guys okay to answer some questions because we’re already an hour [inaudible 00:01:33:57]. Do you think it’s good?

Ryan Smith (01:34:00):


Nick Andrews (01:34:00):


Ryan Smith (01:34:01):

Yeah, [Inaudible 01:34:01]

Jay Campbell (01:34:00):

Okay, cool. Okay. Peptide BioRegulators. So peptide BioRegulators are natural substances present in the body of every person guys, most of the research with peptide BioRegulators is from Russian Military Medical Academy and then the St. Petersburg Institute of Bioregulation and Gerontology. As Ryan knows, he was over in Moscow. The Russians are very closed off with the research and a lot of their stuff is patented in Russia, which is obviously not applicable to the West.

Jay Campbell (01:34:29):

So Nick, just real quick talk about BioRegulators, why you like them so much and the three classes.

Nick Andrews (01:34:36):

BioRegulators, virtually all of them are oral. So, dealing with reconstitution, injection, dosing, all this and all that, you simplify it massively. Also, from the same thing perspective, if you look at how they’re developed to be used, most of them are intended to be used along the lines of anywhere from one to four tablets throughout the day, for anywhere from two weeks to six weeks, and then maybe you do cycle that total, two to three times a year at most. So it makes it very easy to use. If you dig through the Russian background on them, they’re fairly well known, compared to a lot of the peptides we’re discussing here today.

Nick Andrews (01:35:23):

The other thing is you have to keep in mind, there’s a fair amount of data. I’m sure you’ve dug into it Ryan, Russian data behind these as well. Look at where they come from, you can take almost any organ system in the body and you can extract organ system specific biopeptides. That’s what they’re doing with these and that’s where they’re coming from. Most of these essentially, let’s be blunt about it, they’re extracted from cattle, but they’re active in humans as well. That’s been shown time and again, so they’re easier to use. The effects where people will have to keep things in mind is, I’ll use it if they’re impotent, there are not necessarily as potent as something like BPC-157, TB-500.

Nick Andrews (01:36:09):

You may not see these stunning changes in six weeks. You may go through one or two cycles. But they’re easier to use, they’re established. Let’s be honest, you’re not having to jump through the same hoops of, I can only go here, here and here to get them. Honestly you can go… I’m not suggesting you do this because I’m sure half of them are fake, but you can find them on Amazon, right?

Jay Campbell (01:36:36):

Oh, they’re definitely fake then.

Nick Andrews (01:36:40):

I’m sure they are. But think about it, we’re used to this stuff, we talk about micrograms versus milligrams, reconstitution, we’re used to it. We throw this stuff out, like it’s the ABCs. It’s challenging for a lot of people.

Jay Campbell (01:36:57):

Most people.

Nick Andrews (01:36:58):

So if you can access something that’s just a tablet that you’re going to take twice a day, even if it takes longer, I mean that is a huge tool for a lot of people. You try telling the elderly 68, 70 year old person, who’s having issues with lungs or neurodegenerative or whatever their issue may be. Let’s be honest, unless you’re doing it for them, their doctor is doing it with them, they’re not going to be injecting every day and honestly a lot of them will refuse to do it. Whereas you say, “Here’s your pill.” Well, just the psychology, that entirely is different. So it makes the power of these compounds much more accessible to a lot of people who will not otherwise be able to access it.

Jay Campbell (01:37:45):

Very well said. Obviously I will echo that. These guys are helping. Nick wrote most of the book, but our peptide book, which is kind of delayed now because COVID happened. But, the reality is, is we’ve spent what? 40 pages in the book teaching people, peptides for dummies stub, peptides one-on-one, which is like, how to reconstitute, how do you store peptides, what is the difference between a microgram, a milligram, how to use bacteriostatic water. I mean all the things, like you said, the ABCs to us, is like Chinese to most people, so it’s not easy. So I see why peptide BioRegulators, if we would ever have the ability in the United States, again, assuming sterility control process, blah, blah, blah are great.

Jay Campbell (01:38:30):

One other thing last I’ll add, and Nick, you could go into it, but I mean I’d rather get the questions, is that, they offer a lot of efficacy to a post COVID world and to people who have been injured from COVID, because we know that it attacks the a2 receptors in the heart, in the testes, even in the brain. I mean they’re finding shit out every day. I was talking to Anthony J. Just a couple of days ago about it and he was like, “I want you to take my podcast out.” “Why do you want to do that?” He’s like, ” Because there’s a lot more that we’ve figured out.” So, I mean they’re a nasty disease, virus, whatever, and there’s probably a lot of BioRegulators that can help in repair capacity.

Nick Andrews (01:39:11):

Yeah. So look, we’ve been at this for a while, so we can get to the questions, but I personally look at a lot of this from a risk perspective, a cost benefit. So yes, BioRegulators, they’re not necessarily the cheapest thing in the world, but your risk is essentially negligible. So, if we’re talking about COVID, like okay, I’m concerned about organ damage, whether it’s heart, intestines, testes, whatever, “Hey, you know what, there’s a BioRegulator for every major organ system. So if you’re worried about that organ system, once again, unless you’re going to be doing the testing, no, you can’t prove the end result, but you have a compound that’s been shown to work through multiple studies, through real world juice. If you can go do the digging yourself, so why wouldn’t you? Versus saying, “Well, I’m just going to wait until I have an early heart attack, because I recovered from COVID.”

Jay Campbell (01:40:08):

You guys are amazing. Okay, so I’m going to go through the best questions. I’m just going to pop them on the screen, you guys can help me answer them. There’s some amazing questions. First off, thank you to everyone who’s watched, we’ve had over 300 most of the time, we’ve gone down to about 220 toward the end here. That was the Ben Greenfield effect. No, I’m just kidding.

Jay Campbell (01:40:28):

Okay. So again, thanks to all, there’s tons of clinicians watching. Any side effects from GHK-Cu?

Nick Andrews (01:40:38):


Ryan Smith (01:40:39):

Oh, yeah. The only one-

Nick Andrews (01:40:43):

I mean-

Jay Campbell (01:40:43):

Go ahead Ryan.

Ryan Smith (01:40:44):

The only one we’ve seen is with the injection. There might be some bruising on the injection side, and so in terms of the topical, I haven’t seen much of anything.

Jay Campbell (01:40:51):

Yeah, I know Nick agrees obviously. Again, GHK-Cu topical versus injectable differences. Go ahead. Either one.

Nick Andrews (01:41:00):

The only thing I would throw with GHK-Cu is, the same caution you should use with any growth factor because fundamentally it is a growth factor. If you’ve had cancer in the past or you think you might have it or do have it, avoid it, it’s a growth factor. But, for someone who’s otherwise healthy, honestly I’ll be a pain in Ryan’s butt, I don’t know that I’d even consider bruising a side effect because for some people it’s so common regardless of what you’re injecting. Yeah.

Ryan Smith (01:41:33):

Sure. No, I really agree, it just is something that we’ve seen. The other thing that I should say is that, if you overdo it on the injection, you can get some of the lunula of your nails to turn blue and that’s generally is a sign that you shouldn’t dose it as much. Then goes back to Dr. Schwarz comment, I did see her mention, “What do you take to reduce copper?” It’s same thing you take for Wilson’s disease, it’s the Tetrathiomolybdate or the TTMB, also used for some anticancer strategies. So I just wanted to throw that out there too.

Jay Campbell (01:42:03):

There you go, Ryan.

Nick Andrews (01:42:05):

I would imagine that there has to be pretty high doses to see it collecting like that.

Ryan Smith (01:42:10):

Yeah. Mostly, you would think, but some people just have, say a predisposition to having a go. I’ve never seen it with Schwartz though.

Jay Campbell (01:42:19):

There’s some Ryan and Andrew Wax leavings us comments. But if I can boot him out of the podcast. Could you cover BPC-157 intro- articulate?

Ryan Smith (01:42:31):

Yes. To be honest with you, I haven’t seen it used into-articular. The idea is that it does help to decrease collagen synthesis, but I don’t know that I’ve ever seen it used or heard of a ton of feedback, so that would be new to me.

Jay Campbell (01:42:45):

Okay. So sorry. Not getting an answer that you probably want. Somebody said, what’s the deal with all the people gaining weight on BPC-157? That would just be water weight. Right?

Ryan Smith (01:42:57):

Yeah. It’s not something that I’ve heard a ton of, I’ve heard it once or twice and so I would only assume it could be water weight as a result of maybe some of the additional growth factors, but honestly I’ve no idea.

Jay Campbell (01:43:08):

I mean whenever you gain weight, it’s dietary, let’s be honest. Okay, so you see that, BPC with osteoarthritis joint on joint.

Ryan Smith (01:43:18):

I don’t know about yours and Nick’s experience, but we typically don’t see, I would say a ton of benefit with osteoarthritis joint on joint. For that we would recommend something like the Pentosam Polysulfate, which has been studied in those phase two clinical trials in Australia. Other than that, unfortunately we don’t have a ton of options.

Nick Andrews (01:43:36):

Hasn’t AOD been shown to help with that?

Ryan Smith (01:43:39):

It has, yeah. AOD with Hyaluronic Acid intraarticulately it’s the only thing that we do intraarticularly. It has been shown to regrowing [inaudible 01:43:48] cartilage. We have both same MRIs as well as some functional Womack studies. So, that is possible. But obviously it’s a procedure and will need to be done at your physician’s office. It’s relatively involved as well.

Jay Campbell (01:43:59):

So, this type-

Nick Andrews (01:43:59):

So, this-

Jay Campbell (01:44:01):

Go ahead, Nick.

Nick Andrews (01:44:02):

Just a spit ball, it might be interesting to make that a two phase approach. You can do the AOD first, then you wait like two weeks and bring the BPC-157 on, because that’s going to supplement the regeneration of soft tissue.

Ryan Smith (01:44:17):

Absolutely. Any practitioners out there listening, let’s do it.

Jay Campbell (01:44:22):

There’s plenty. So this is a good one and I think we’ve had this before, but some people claim that they have no results on five amino and then they move it up and they get tremendous results. I, very personally, anecdotally, subjectively, definitely notice a difference from taking 100 to 150, for me. Again, I’m six, one and a half, 215 pound dude. Do you want to comment on that Ryan? I mean, I would assume that there are non-responders to everything, right?

Ryan Smith (01:44:54):

Yeah, definitely. The majority of things we’re talking about, some people just don’t respond. I would say the largest majority with the five amino have responded, especially if we’re talking about performance. I would say that, one of the reasons that this was so exciting was the weight loss effects, particularly the white adipose tissue effects. You know what? The weight loss has been a little bit less consistent, but the performance benefits had been, I would say, very consistent across the board. The one pro tip I mentioned earlier is take it with food, because it is a sort of lipid soluble to increase some of that absorption.

Nick Andrews (01:45:24):

So look, there’s another combo for you, combine it with C60, because C60 is going to soak up all those free radicals, increase in [inaudible 00:18:31], that’s carried in olive oil, my man and there you go. [inaudible 01:45:35] combo.

Jay Campbell (01:45:38):

Okay. So equivalent dosing of subcutaneous versus topical in GHK-Cu? Any one of you guys can take that.

Ryan Smith (01:45:46):

Yeah. Go ahead, after you.

Nick Andrews (01:45:46):

Yeah. Go ahead.

Ryan Smith (01:45:46):

No. Absolutely.

Nick Andrews (01:45:50):

I’m going to say, it depends on what you’re targeting to use for. If you’re looking for a cosmetic purposes or for healing, whether it’s a skin abrasion or a sunburn, I think topicals is going to be better because you’re at the site of damage or well, it damage across, whether it’s aging or the sunburn or abrasion or whatever. You’re at a site if you’re looking for… So keep in mind, GHK-Cu also acts systemically, like a lot of these. So if you’re more of just a general anti-aging approach or GHK is also healing as you. So if you’re looking for more of a systemic healing perspective, sub-Q is obviously going to be better without question. So, systemic would be sub-Q, for skin healing, surface exterior, I’m going to say topical. I don’t know how you feel, Ryan.

Ryan Smith (01:46:50):

No. I very much agree. I think that topical is a good way to go, because like as I mentioned earlier, the studies showing that it’s still effective systemically if you do it even topically. The other big issue is that there’s an ACL study repair on GHK, copper and mice ACLs and they showed that some GHK is good but too much actually increases the cellularity of those tendons and ligaments, so much that they actually become weaker. So with the GHK moderation is best. I think you can accomplish that through administration in transdermal.

Jay Campbell (01:47:25):

You guys are amazing. By the way, all the people that are still watching, because we still have a lot of people watching. If I believe the analytics on social media, which I don’t. Adam Lamb, shout out to you brother. How are you man? I see a bunch of people. I see Travis Stigler. I see a bunch of amazing people. I see Andrew Wax, I used to know that guy. He’s got some amazing questions. I got to ask, I got to put Ryan on the spot. Boom.

Ryan Smith (01:47:56):

Definitely. No, I’ll say what I can on this and I obviously` going to reiterate.

Jay Campbell (01:48:00):


Ryan Smith (01:48:02):

Exactly, right? Oh, man, that was my internal reaction. But yeah, no, I mean unfortunately we-

Ryan Smith (01:49:14):

Thanks Dr. Skler.

Jay Campbell (01:49:22):

Oh, that’s it right there. Get a screenshot then put that on Twitter and put up a big FDA F-off or something like that. It’s so sick, but it’s so true. I’m just going through, FDA fools, I love that. Can’t do that, not allowed. Let’s see here.

Jay Campbell (01:49:43):

Best time to take five amino from, Adam Lamb, all at once, split up or fasting. I mean I take it in the morning all at once, gotten great results, take it fasting, I’ve taken it with food too, still get the same effects. I think you said Ryan, it’s better to take with food, right?

Ryan Smith (01:49:58):

Yeah, definitely. Or like you said, any type of oil soluble thing. But again I recommend all at once as well.

Jay Campbell (01:50:04):

Okay, Rapamycin, is it being restricted?

Ryan Smith (01:50:10):

It is not, thankfully. Again, most of the time the Rapamycin for the antiaging purposes or the skin regenerative purposes have been prescribed off label. At the moment, there is no issue with prescribing that off label.

Jay Campbell (01:50:24):

Beautiful. Okay. I think we’re pretty much done guys here. Unless, you saw something you wanted to answer that I didn’t see. There’s a lot of questions and I apologize if I missed some of you guys. I appreciate all you guys. Here’s one, Dihexa with DMSO?

Ryan Smith (01:50:41):

I think the idea with the DMSO is, it’s more permeable to the skin, and Dihexa is a relatively a small molecule, but I don’t think that, that’s an issue. I think that generally, however the cream or… It’s pretty permeable. So, I would be worried about doing a ton of DMSO.

Jay Campbell (01:50:58):

SS-31 Ryan, I saw it, I’m not posting it on the screen though, but like how much do you love it in comparison to five amino? Do you think this is like the real bee’s knees about diet and time?

Ryan Smith (01:51:08):

I do. I don’t think that it’s a substitute for therapies, which address NAD. But it addresses a huge, one of the hallmarks of aging, the mitochondrial dysfunction. The data looks so amazing on the SS-31, I mean it looks unbelievable and so I’m sure that obviously, Jay, I’ll send you a lot of that and you can definitely talk about it in the future. But sub-Q, generally the clinical trial and research doses look to be 40 milligrams subcutaneously once daily. I’ve been told by the clinical pharmacologist who worked on it that it’s at least five micrograms is effective. I would basically say, we’re doing it in some of the clinical trials at the 10 milligram subcutaneously, once a daily dose.

Jay Campbell (01:51:50):

I love this question. I don’t even have to ask you because I already can say no, because I live in California. But it said, is it available in California? Although, it is… No, nothing is available in the people’s Republic of California, they’re about to kick me out too. I mean, that’s coming by the way.

Jay Campbell (01:52:10):

Okay. I saw a good one, Ryan right here. So SS-31 again on subcutaneous versus IV.

Ryan Smith (01:52:16):

So there are studies on IV, particularly with heart function, but we have not done it IV and so we’re only recommending that 10 milligrams subcutaneous dose and we’ll be doing that in IV as well.

Jay Campbell (01:52:31):

Okay, so there’s so many. I’m going to shut it down because it’s almost been two hours and you guys are on [crosstalk 00:25:36]. Last question you can answer. Nick, is GHK-Cu readily absorbable mixed with most creams?

Nick Andrews (01:52:42):

Yes, it is.

Jay Campbell (01:52:43):

There we go. All right, well guys, listen, I promise everyone who watched this tonight, first off, make sure that you guys signed Please, it’s very important. Share it with your friends, your loved ones, your family members, your brothers, your sisters, your aunts, your uncles, dads, grandmas. It’s important that we all sign that and fill that out and we get that out there because as Ryan said, it’s unfortunate but we might be in danger of everybody going to the research chemical route and we don’t want that because that’s not safe unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your perspective. But you guys, man, phenomenal podcast.

Jay Campbell (01:53:21):

I mean, again, I said this was going to be the best podcast ever on peptides and there’s nothing that holds a candle to this. We covered pretty much everything. You of course, as you always do Ryan, got some really nice new stuff in here. I mean you guys each get the final say. Ryan, I’ll go to you first.

Ryan Smith (01:53:38):

Yeah, no, I mean like I said, I’d like to drive everyone to [inaudible 01:53:42] talking about save peptides. I appreciate everyone tuning in and if they have any other questions, they’re always welcome to contact me directly and hopefully we can go from there.

Jay Campbell (01:53:54):


Nick Andrews (01:53:57):

Yeah, no, great stuff as always, cutting edge and it’s great to be able to help people find this stuff and take care of themselves.

Jay Campbell (01:54:05):

Yeah, you guys again man, truly appreciate you guys coming on again almost two hours. Phenomenal. Thanks to Ben Greenfield. I know he had to step off. All of us guys, we’re all in this crazy time and place right now. But if there’s anything that can come out of this, it’s to remember to remain in the now moment and embrace the downtime, be creative, be compassionate, be concerned, be kind, be loving, be forgiving, do all those things, because if you’re not doing those things, that’s when you can really get lost off the beaten path.

Jay Campbell (01:54:35):

So again, tremendous love to Ryan Smith, tremendous love to Nick Andrews. Let me just say, as I always say at the end of my podcast, now remember, raise your vibration to optimize your love creation. We’ll see you guys very soon.

Ryan Smith (01:54:51):

All right, thanks Jay, thanks Nick.

REMEMBER: Please share your opinion on why Peptides must continue to remain a viable prescribing option for Clinicians.

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